Who does Henry Searles belong to.

Discussion in 'Essex' started by Findem, Mar 22, 2021.

  1. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Got a odd one here.

    There are two Henry Searles and one of them married Mary Ann Smith 20 Oct 1857, said to be in Great Leighs Essex, that info comes from a Public Tree on Ancestry and from the book on Essex Searles by Ken Searles.

    Let me state now I have no reason to doubt Ken Searles research he was very thorough, but I cannot find those marriage details on FreeReg, Ancestry's EPRI, Family Search or FMP.

    What I have found from Free BMD is Henry Searles married Mary Ann Smith Dec quarter 1857 Chelmsford Registration District, vol 4a page 205. Great Leighs is in the Chelmsford Registry District, I have by the way sent for the Marriage Certificate because there is a problem attached which I'm relying on the cert to solve.

    Both Ken Searles and the Public Tree claim that Henry is a son of my ancestors Thomas and Sophia Searles and was baptised 1825/6 at Great Leighs, the Censuses back that claim but I'll be darned if i can find it and I've looked several times over the years.

    The only Henry Searles I can find is one baptised 26 Nov 1826 at Braintree Independent (Congregational) the son of William Searles and his wife Hannah Taylor, the register noted the abode of William and Hannah was Great Leighs. Those are also related to my Searles line.

    Oddly, the Ken Searles book, the Public tree and Censuses show the two daughters of Henry and Mary Ann Searles, Eliza born 1847 and Emma born 1851. I do wonder if Henry and Mary Ann could have got away with, as it would have been considered in those days, 'living in sin', that amount of time, Great Leighs back then was a small village, especially the part of Great Leighs Henry and Mary Ann lived in, Chatley Hamlet, everyone would know everyone's business

    So the reason I've now sent for the marriage cert for Henry and Mary Ann is so I can ascertain who the father of Henry is, Thomas or William, also the name of Mary Ann's father will help to determine which Mary Ann Smith she is, there are too many.

    From my recent research it seems that the only record of the 1857 marriage for Henry is the details for ordering the certificate.

    I'm beginning to consider my Searles a bit of a pain, I will be glad to put this family to bed. :)

    Even the other children of Thomas and Sophia Searles were difficult to round up, two at Gt Waltham C of E, then two at Felsted C of E, two at Braintree Congregational, one at Great Leighs C of E, then one at Braintree Cong and the last two at Great Leighs C of E, that is of course if Henry turns out to be theirs.

    I will post the conclusion of this once I have received the marriage cert.
     
    Sis, Half Hour, janetbooth and 2 others like this.
  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,796
    Likes Received:
    31,120
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    If they were Non-Conformist, they would not show up in the Parish Registers and may show up as having married at the Registry Office. Just a thought...

    I would be interested to see what is on the certificate as well. :)
     
    Findem, Sis, janetbooth and 1 other person like this.
  3. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Yes my thoughts too Jan, I wasn't too sure whether they could be married in an Independent chapel or not.

    In the family of Thomas and Sophia Searles, two daughters are giving me trouble with marriages, an Elizabeth Sarle baptised 1815 Gt Leighs C of E married James Turner, March quarter 1838, Eliza Searles baptised 1824 Braintree Ind. married Samuel Smith, September quarter 1840, both marriages in the Chelmsford Reg District but I cant find a church marriage for them.

    A Webb family who married into the Smith family baptised three of their children at Braintree Ind, the parents were noted as "of Great Leighs", one of those daughters married my ancestor Isaac Smith, Isaac was from the Great Leighs Smiths.

    I'm wondering if there were many families in Great Leighs who turned to the Congregational church at Braintree.

    Now for an impatient wait for the marriage certificate. :)
     
    Ma-dotcom and janetbooth like this.
  4. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,796
    Likes Received:
    31,120
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    The Non-Conformists were rather widespread in Essex in the 19th century.

    Although later, my great grandparents in Ashdon, near Saffron Walden, were christened at their local parish church where they also married. After their first child was born, they converted to Baptists, were baptised as such and all of their subsequent children were baptised in the Baptist Chapel.

    Actually, their eldest child was the first person to have their marriage recognised at Ashdon Baptist Chapel, which took place in 1898. All other marriages that had taken place there were recorded as being Register Office weddings.
     
    Findem and Ma-dotcom like this.
  5. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,628
    Likes Received:
    5,355
    Location:
    Bloxham Oxfordshire
    have you ever considered the Henry found on Familysearch

    Event Type Marriage
    Event Date
    1847
    Event Place
    Chelmsford, Essex, England
    Name
    Henry Searles
    Page
    61
    Volume
    12
    Affiliate Line Number
    13
    Registration Quarter
    Apr-May-Jun
    Registration Year
    1847
    Possible Spouse
    Emma Alefounder
     
    Findem likes this.
  6. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,628
    Likes Received:
    5,355
    Location:
    Bloxham Oxfordshire
    I think that the Henry above is son of William and Hannah born Nov 1826
     
    Findem likes this.
  7. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Yes the Henry Searles who married Emma Alefounder is the son of William Searles and his wife Hannah Taylor, I have the details, somewhere!

    William is the third (son) child of Thomas Serle and his wife Sarah Willers aka Willis and the younger brother of the Thomas Searles who married Sophia Fuel aka Fewell.

    Now to find where the devil I've recorded the details of the marriage of William Searles and Hannah Taylor.

    Found it! They married 26 Apr 1814 at Felsted.

    I'm pretty sure I've found the Henry Searles their son, have to find the record.
     
  8. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    I have the Marriage Cert I sent for approximately a month ago and it's out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    It does define who Henry's father is, Thomas Searles, definitely not William.

    According to the cert Henry Searles, bachelor, married Mary Ann Smith 23 Oct 1857 at Great Leighs, both of full age and residents, at the time of the marriage, of Great Leighs.
    Now here is where it goes into the fire, Mary Ann Smith was a widow, her father was stated to be Robert Barker, so the Mary Ann Smith baptisms I looked up on the EPRI are now wasted effort!

    It gets worse, the 1861 and 1871 ages would see them both born about 1826 or 1827 Chatley Hamlet, Great Leighs, Essex. There are two Mary Ann Barkers that fit the bill.

    Mary Ann Barker baptised 10 Jun 1827 Gosfield Essex the daughter of Robert and Sarah Barker, I noted 7 of their children baptised at Gosfield 1825 to 1835.

    Mary Ann Barker baptised 3 Jul 1825 at Great Leighs the daughter of John and Sarah Barker, I found four children of theirs all baptised at Great Leighs 1819 to 1825, all girls and two named Mary Ann.

    The witnesses on the Marriage Cert were George and Hannah Searles, George is a younger brother of Henry and Hannah is George's second wife.

    I think i need to check the marriage entry in the Gt Leighs parish marriage register to see what it has the father's name as, Robert or John, I'm wondering if Robert is incorrect. I haven't lost sight of the possibility Mary Ann might have had her place of birth wrong.

    If anyone can think of a way of really defining who Mary Ann's father is I'd be grateful to hear of it. I think for now I'll go with Robert but there's quite a bit of uncertainty in my mind.
     
  9. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

    Offline
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    3,754
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Emma Smith, mmn Barker, registered Chelmsford Sep quarter 1850, not sure about Eliza
     
    Findem likes this.
  10. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

    Offline
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    3,754
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Possible marriage (on same page) Mary Ann Barker and James Smith Reg Chelmsford Jun 1842
     
    Findem likes this.
  11. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

    Offline
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    3,754
    Location:
    Cornwall
    And Emma baptised at Gt Leigh's 1855 with parents James and Mary Ann, perhaps close to when James died?
     
    Findem likes this.
  12. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

    Offline
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    3,754
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Eliza, with parents James and Mary Ann baptism 8 Nov 1846 at Gt Leighs, but so far I haven't been able to find them in 1851 although a possible for Emma as niece to John and Rebecca Smith
     
  13. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

    Offline
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    3,754
    Location:
    Cornwall
    in the 1861 Henry and Mary Ann have a visitor John Barker age 70 of Chatley. So it does look like he could be her father.
     
    Findem and Ma-dotcom like this.
  14. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Yes I saw that, My thoughts too, I think what I'll have to do is contact the Archivists at the ERO and find out where the marriage registers post 1837 are held. I'm guessing with the Gt Leighs Vicar/Curate, if the ERO had them they would have been digitised and on Ancestry's Essex Parish Register Index.

    I need to find out who the Parish Marriage Register names Mary Ann's father as Robert or John, I'm suspecting the Registry Office in Chelmsford are to blame if the father's name is incorrect, what I have on the cert is a photo copy of the Registry Office copy.

    Just thought, I'll google Gt Leighs church to see if an email address is given
     
  15. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    How's this for odd finding two Henry Searles operating in Essex around the same time. And the wives names!

    Henry and Mary Ann Searles at Gt Leighs they named a daughter Emma born Gt Leighs abt 1851, can't find the baptism of that Emma in the EPRI or Family Search and probably won't find her sister Elizabeth either, Henry her father is the son of Thomas and Sophia Searles.

    Then there is the Emma Searles daughter of Henry and Ann Maria Searles baptised 30 Mar 1856 at Cold Norton Essex, found five children of this family baptised 1856 to 1864 all at Cold Norton.
     
  16. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Found the Great Leighs church site and have used the Message facility.
     
    Ma-dotcom and Daft Bat like this.
  17. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Heard from the Gt Leighs Admin people yesterday. apparently although the EROs SEAX catalogue doesn't show the ERO have the marriage registers for Gt Leighs post 1837, they do have the register/s.

    Gt Leighs church have copies and will search them for a fee which is set out by the Anglican Church.

    I'm going to contact the Archivists at the ERO and see if they will look at the marriage entry in the Great Leighs parish marriage register and advise me what it states the name of father of the bride is, with the Covid business I might have to wait a while.
     
  18. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

    Offline
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    3,754
    Location:
    Cornwall
    If you look at my earlier post you will see that the Emma and Eliza with Henry and Mary Ann (Barker) in the 1861 census were her children with James Smith. They must have taken Henry's name after their mother remarried.
     
    Ma-dotcom likes this.
  19. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    Thanks for reminding me Londoner.
     
  20. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One. Rest in Peace.

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    13,311
    Location:
    NSW, Australia, ex Chelmsford Essex
    My thought also but I need to be careful there is the possibility he could be an elderly relative, uncle etc.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice