My 2 x g grandmother was born in Hereford around 1825 but I have never found her baptism, either original or as a transcription. I tried the Herefordshire Record office: "I see from your website that you keep parish registers and Bishop' Transcripts in microform. Do you sell copies of the microfiche/film, as some other record offices do? If not, are there any plans to do so? Are there any plans to make these records more accessible, particularly by digitisation?" Their reply: "While we can print copies from the Parish Register and Bishop’s Transcripts microfilms we do not sell whole copies and do not have any plans to do so. I understand it may be possible to purchase films from the Latter Day Saints who filmed them although I understand this is sometimes quite complicated as permission must be obtained from each incumbent for the registers that are on the microfilm. I am not sure how other record offices go about this process. We are currently in talks with both the Latter Day Saints and Ancestry about the digitisation of these records that will then go on their websites. However this is in the very early stage and no decisions have been made. I am sorry not to have better news for you at present." While this exchange does not get my enquiry farther forward, I thought others with connections in Herefordshire might be interested in the information.
Thanks for this useful information LR. It's saved me contacting the Hereford LRO in the hope of finding records for my Herefordshire born g g grandparents.
If it is any help, I do have the Herefordshire FHS Marriage Index from 1538-1837 and the Herefordshire Burial Index 1813-37. Let me know if a look up will help you at all. Janet
That's very kind, Janet. You might see whether there is a marriage for Richard HURLEY in Herefordshire and also a burial after 1827 for a female HURLEY, probably in Hereford itself. Richard was my 3 x g grandfather and his daughter, Jane, was always consistent regarding her birthplace in all censuses - Hereford (and White Cross, Hereford in 1911). What I don't know is who Jane's mother was, as she was missing by 1841, when the family was back in Bristol, Richard's home city. I suspect that she was Matilda Fox, based on the names used in the family, but that is pure speculation! Thanks, John
Not much luck on either, I'm afraid, John, but there is a burial at Hereford All Saints on 28 December 1823 for an Edward HURLEY of Whitecross, aged 3 - could he be one of yours? The 1841 census of Bristol St George (HO107/377/11, folio 69, page 20) shows the family living at Lawrence Hill and none of them born in the county. The 1851 census of Bristol Temple (HO107/1947, folio 324, page 8) shows a Richard HURLEY, widower, Chelsea Pensioner, born Herefordshire unknown, lodging in the household of John HYDE & family at 7 Colestone's Place. If this is your Richard HURLEY, I have found his Chelsea Pensioners record on FMP (surname HARLEY) and although it is not very informative it does state that he was born in Hampton, Herefordshire. Following through on Matilda Fox HURLEY she marries Edward Douglas DUGGINS in 1842 at Shoreditch, Middlesex and then remarries on 2 September 1851 at Whitechapel to an Andrew DOUGLAS, he being an Engineer. 1861 census of Falmouth (RG9/1566, folio 57, page 8) shows an Andrew DOUGLAS, he being an Engineer in the Royal Navy, married to a Matilda with a son George aged 13 born Bristol (presumably from Matilda's first marriage) and Matilda is shown as born c1819 in the city of London. I thought this might lead me to a baptismal record for Matilda which would give me her mother's forename, but no such luck as I cannot find a baptism for her in London. I cannot find a marriage on the Herefordshire Marriage Index between a female FOX and a male HURLEY/HARLEY nor between a male FOX & a female HURLEY/HARLEY, so no joy there either. Will do a bit more digging and see if I can come up with anything. Janet
That really is a kind offer Janet. My g g grandfather moved to Birmingham from possibly Pencombe. According to his marriage certificate his father was named William Wetherby/Wethersby and he would have married 1815-1825. The one marriage I have found to date was with Margaret Adams, but they are not my g g g grandparents.
Thanks for all this Janet. The burial of young Edward in 1823 could indeed be this family - the transcription says nothing about parents? The 1841 census entry you mention was already known to me and is right. There is also an Edward DUGGINS, engineer, living close by! However, the 1851 census looks suspect - Richard was a boot and shoe maker and was listed in 1841 as of independent means and in 1861 as a proprietor of houses (he was the life tenant of property under the will of his brother Samuel). I'm fairly sure he was from Bristol and think the 'not born in county' is to do with the ambiguous classification of parts of Bristol - city, Somerset, Gloucestershire. The marriage of Matilda and Edward is also right, but I am unsure about the 'remarriage' you mention. There is no record of Edward after 1842,even a death record. I might have to investigate the 1851 marriage more closely to see whether it is a red herring or not! I stress that the name FOX could be misleading. I assume that there was no marriage of a Richard HURLEY to anyone between 1810 and 1820? As for my gg grandmother Jane, I know that she had an illegitimate son in Portsea in 1844 and married James DUGGINS (brother of Edward) in 1859. Although I haven't found her, or any of that family, in 1851, I can follow her in every other census right up to 1911 and her death in 1919. Thanks again for all the investigation! John
The family is beginning to come together. Matilda's second marriage is correct as it shows her father as Richard HURLEY, Shoemaker. Sister Eleanor married a George NORTHCOTT on 25 December 1841 in Bristol and she is shown on various census records with her husband (sometimes spelled NORTHCOTE). In the 1851 census she and her husband are living in Bristol, in the 1871 census they are in Sheerness, Kent and staying with them is nephew George DOUGLAS (Matilda's son). Jane is shown as Jane HANLEY (Ancestry) in the 1851 census of Bristol (HO107/1954, folio 383, page 37) where she is described as a married Tailoress with son Thomas aged 6 born Portsmouth. Evalina, daughter of James & Jane DUGGINS is shown as a lodger together with Matilda DOUGLAS, now a widow, and her son George who are lodging in the household of Edwin BUTLER & family in Lambeth (RG11/624, folio 109, page 5). May be a breakthrough here. Family Search have the baptism of a John Drake HURLEY on 23 November 1828 son of Richard & Ann HURLEY who could be son John in the 1841 census of Bristol, and, perhaps more importantly for you, the baptism of a Jane HARLEY at Hereford All Saints on 25 March 1825, daughter of Richard & Anne HARLEY. There are a couple of other baptisms to a Richard & Ann, one at Hampton Bishop on 1 April 1827 of a Charles HURLEY and the other on 21 September 1823 at Hereford St Nicholas of a William HARLEY but the latter baptism is almost certainly not the son of your Richard as he is in the 1841 census of Hereford with presumably his parents and this Richard HORLEY is shown as a Skinner aged 35. There is a death registration for an Ann HARLEY in the June qtr 1838 at Hereford reg district which may be relevant but of course this does not appear on the Herefordshire Burial Index. There is a burial at Hampton Bishop for an Ann HARLEY on 9 September 1820, aged 2, which may also prove relevant. Still cannot find a marriage for Richard HURLEY/HARLEY either on the Herefordshire Marriage Index or elsewhere at the moment. If Matilda was indeed born in the London, Camberwell or Clapham area (alters according to census records), her parents may well have married in that area, but so far absolutely zilch. I also cannot trace son John after the 1841 census but will keep looking. Hope this gives you a little more to chew on! Oh, by the way, the Richard HARLEY who was a Chelsea Pensioner is shown as born c1776 at Hampton, leaves the army in 1821 and is shown as a Labourer, so you are probably correct in that he is not your Richard. Who would have thought that there would be so many with the name Richard HURLEY/HARLEY/HORLEY. Janet
TREMENDOUS, Janet!!!! You have certainly found a lot to chew on, and it will take me some time to get through it. In the meantime, thank you so much for being so thorough and inspired! John
Bonzo, The only marriage on the Herefordshire Index is the one you have already found, that of a William WETHERSBY to a Margaret ADAMS at Pencombe on 7 August 1828. It is intriguing that these are not related to you, because WETHERBY/WETHERSBY is an uncommon name on the Index. There is only one male WETHERBY marriage, that of a James in 1737 and only 7 male WETHERSBY marriages, the above marriage being the only one for a William. What was your gg grandfather's Christian name and his approximate date of birth? I can then have a look and see if I can find any trace of him. Janet
Hello Janet His name is Samuel, and his birthplace was assumed as Pencombe from 2 local newspaper articles about him in the late 1830's. Have just managed to find him in the 1851 census, where his surname is spelled Withersbury, according to which he was born at Parkhouse Herefordshire about 1824. It could be coincidence but there is a Park House, now a nursing home, near Bromyard, where my g g grandmother was born. He died in April 1854, and his death certificate, which names him as Wetherby, gives his age as 31. His death was just 3 months after my g grandfather was born, whose birth certificate spells the surname Weatherby. Despite the surname variations (it is Wethersbury on his marriage certificate in 1847) I am 100% confident I have the right relative. The addresses given on his marriage and death certificates, plus those on my g grandfather's birth certificate and the 1851 census return are identical. Searches on Family Search using Bromyard and Pencombe as POB's have found one baptismal record dated 18 Oct 1825 at Pencombe. This record infers he is the illegitimate son of Ann Weathersby. If this is his baptismal record, did he invent his father William to "make it look good" at his marriage.
I wonder if this is relevant? There is a marriage at Pencombe on 22 May 1827 of an Anne WETHERSBY to a John MORGAN - could this be Samuel's mother. There is an Ann MORGAN in the 1841 census of Pencombe (HO107/419/4, folio 13, page 4), a 41 year old Agricultural Labourer living with 17 year old Samuel PERKINS and presumably her 2 children Sarah MORGAN aged 9 and Edward MORGAN aged 7, all born in the county - could this possibly be your Samuel and was his father perhaps a PERKINS? 1851 census shows her as a widow living in Winslow North (HO107/1980, folio 99, page 3) with children George & Sarah, 1861 census shows her in Bromyard living with daughter & son in law Sarah & Richard PHILPOTTS. There is a baptism (source Ancestry Select Births & Christenings) at Pencombe on 1 April 1798 of a Hannah daughter of William & Mary WEATHERSBY - perhaps this is where the William came from on Samuel's marriage record. My own maternal grandmother put her grandfather's name as her father on her marriage record because she was illegitimate, although in her case her mother died when she was 18 months old and she always referred to her grandparents as mother & dad in correspondence which caused me a merry dance when I first tried to find her supposed father! I was a lot greener in those days. Several burials of a John MORGAN in Pencombe, but if Edward was indeed his child the burial must have been no earlier than 1833, although having said that, the only baptism I can find for an Edward MORGAN c1834 at Pencombe is one for the son of John & Mary MORGAN. Sarah is definitely their child though and she was baptised on 8 June 1831 at Pencombe daughter of John & Ann MORGAN. Two burials for a John MORGAN at Pencombe, one on 12 August 1831, aged 54 and the other on 19 September 1832, aged 74. Hope this gives you something to get your teeth into and at least will give you other avenues to explore. Let me know if I can help further. Janet PS Burial of a William WEATHERSBY of Winslow at Pencombe on 6 February 1823, aged 60 (Burial Index 1813-37). No burial for Mary wife of William so perhaps she died before 1813 or after 1837.
I have been concentrating on Matilda initially. May I ask where you got the father's details in respect of the second marriage? Certainly all the connections you have unearthed confirm that this is the right Matilda. I think your search technique must be better than mine, Janet, as I failed to find some of these misspellings and misinterpretations in the past. I looked up the 1861 census reference you gave and nearly fell off my seat. Andrew DOUGLAS is stated to have been born in Glamorganshire - Llantrisant. That is certainly where James DUGGINS was born and, I believe, Edward DUGGINS. Certain things are troubling me. There is no record I can find of Edward DUGGINS's death, including deaths overseas. Any help there? Then there is no Andrew DOUGLAS on the Glamorgan FHS baptisms index, for Llantrisant or anywhere else. DOUGLAS is a very uncommon name in Glamorgan and the few census and index references I can find are nowhere near Llantrisant. While there might be explanations for all of these omissions, I also find it odd that Matilda's first marriage was to Edward Douglas DUGGINS and that he and Andrew DOUGLAS were both engineers. Friends maybe, or perhaps the same man?? Don't ask me why, but it just seems so very odd. Just to get me back to earth, you mentioned Evalina, Matilda's niece. I actually met Eva, as she then was. I have a slight but real recollection of her just before she died in 1952, aged 92. Some of this old stuff isn't so far away, after all!! I'm still having a ponder on all the other things you brought to light........ John
Thank you Janet. This certainly gives food for thought, especially given the age and occupation of Samuel Perkins. Add to that the absence of census records in Birmingham and Herefordshire for a Samuel Wethersby, or however you care to spell it, and well, who knows?
John, Matilda's 2nd marriage took place at St Mary, Whitechapel on 2 September 1851, the banns being called at St Mary on 17, 24 & 31st August 1851 at the same church (source Ancestry's London Parish Registers): Andrew DOUGLAS, full age, bachelor, Engineer, Colchester St, father Edward DOUGLAS, Blacksmith & Matilda DUGGINS, full age, widow, Colchester St, father Richard HURLEY, Shoemaker. Both signed and the witnesses were Henry CHAPMAN who signed & Elizabeth WILKINSON who marked. Andrew DOUGLAS certainly seems to exist at least from 5 May 1842. Ancestry have a couple of Naval records for him. His date of birth is 4 March 1815, he enrolled in the Royal Navy on 20 December 1845 his rank being Chief Engineer - this document is held by the National Archives. However, Ancestry do hold an original record of his full Service which you can view online which shows he passed as 3rd Engineer at Woolwich on 5 May 1842 and at the bottom of the first page it gives his address on 20 April 1869 as Rose Cottage, Love Walk, Camberwell. At the bottom of the second page it notes that he was placed on the Retired List on 1 April 1870 and his death as being on 10 March 1880 and that they were informed on 16 March 1880 by his widow. I wonder if Edward Douglas DUGGINS fell foul of someone and felt it necessary to change his name. I can find no trace of Andrew DOUGLAS prior to his naval record on 5 May 1842. I can find Edward DUGGINs in the 1841 census of Bristol (HO107/378/6, folio 8, page 9) where he is described as a J Engineer not born in the county living at Lawrence Hill. I am sure they are one and the same person. The marriage record of Edward Douglas DUGGINS shows his father to be Edward Douglas DUGGINS, Smith & the father of Andrew DOUGLAS just happens to be Edward DOUGLAS, Blacksmith!! Even more of a coincidence, FMP just so happen to have a baptism of an Edward DIGGINS, father Edward, in 1815 at Llantrisant - can't give you full details because of their terms and conditions, but this is stretching coincidence at bit far, isn't it. The only fly in the ointment is that Matilda married Edward DUGGINS on 21 November 1842 in Shoreditch and Andrew DOUGLAS passed his 3rd Engineers qualification on 5 May 1842 at Woolwich! Was he already leading a double life? Looking more closely at his service record, it looks as if he was refused admission to the service until 24 May 1843 when he joined the William & Mary as 3rd Engineer. Have a look at his service record on Ancestry if you can, it is very informative and he seems to have been an exemplary Naval Officer. See what you think to the above anyway, it is certainly food for thought. Janet
Hello Janet, You should have a new bye-line: Top Dog Gem! By the way, I am not on Ancestry but have FMP and The Genealogist. You might wonder why I am paying such attention to people not in my direct line. I saw Matilda as a key to finding out more about where the family had been and who the mother was - the City of London bit has rather thrown me, I must say! Also, another HURLEY married another DUGGINS in the direct line and so both these families are of direct interest. I have followed the DUGGINSes back to Berkswell in Warwickshire and have even visited their old forge there, in Duggins Lane, no less! So I was aware of Edward's birth and his appearance in Bristol in 1841, just down the road from the HURLEY family. What always seemed odd was the place of marriage of Edward & Matilda, with no family as witnesses. Then the disappearance of Edward. I'm glad that you haven't dismissed these discrepancies as my fancy and even seem to be persuaded that something a bit fishy has gone on. I'll try to look at Andrew DOUGLAS's service record on Ancestry at the library and see if it illuminates anything more for me. Any more flashes of your investigative genius would of course be welcome! John
I had the same thought about Matilda especially as in all census records she gives her place of birth as the London area which is certainly easier to research online than Herefordshire! However, so far I have come up with absolutely zilch re her birth/baptism so perhaps she was economical with the truth re her place of birth. I will ponder some more to see if anything else strikes me. Janet
I've now managed to look at the service record for Andrew DOUGLAS, having got in under the free weekend offer. As you said, exemplary service. Date of birth is given as 4th March 1815. Edward DUGGINS was baptised on 15th March 1815 - very appropriate for a birthday on 4th! I also noticed that George was registered as a DOUGLAS, well before the second marriage. As for Matilda, she seems to have been quite variable in her birthplace, from City of London to Camberwell and Clapham. Perhaps it's just vagueness or perhaps she just wanted to create doubt and confusion! I still wouldn't be surprised to see her crop up in Hereford, although your index info seems to be against that notion. Anyway, thanks very much for everything so far. John
