That was a rather long article @AnnB So, Silversmith or Musician? I am so confused. I did find John Butler, teacher of music with a father Matthew in 1851 census in Badford, Yorkshire. Think I found his father in 1841, but only possibly because he was a Woolcomber as in 1851. The marriage certificate of Clement George and Henrietta Ryrie is due to be despatched on 8 April, so depending on how good the 2nd Class post is, I think maybe we should wait for that to see if it gives any info on her father - otherwise I think we will all be going round in circles. What I am convinced of, is that the Henrietta Butler in Croydon in 1921 in the same household as Kitty Winer is Kitty's mother. Oh, just had a thought, could Kitty be the daughter of Henrietta's daughter Kathleen (born 1900) making Henrietta Kitty's grandmother? Perhaps Kathleen came to Croydon to have her baby then went back to her dad in Berkshire. We will probably never know the answer. A few years ago, I went to The Museum of Croydon with my friend and his brother where we looked through Electoral Registers for Pawsons Road. We were obviously looking for the surname Winer/Weiner at 178 and came up blank. I did write some names down - I wonder if I still have them. Oh well, we may have to have another trip if I can't find them.
Just in case it helps, I have a lot of musicians in my family and almost all of them had another occupation to 'fall back on' if work of their preferred kind was in short supply. My Dad trained as an optician, then made his living playing the bass until he got MS, then he did bookkeeping until he retired.
Not too sure if you have this....I was sleeping. 1911 has Dennis Lamart Ryrie Butler age 16 born Clapton Father Dennis Lamart Butler born Halifax Commercial Traveller Cuttering Kate Charlotte born Belgravia London wife Dudley Alec 14 Kensington Beryl Joan Kitty 11 born Croydon. John 8 Barnes Surrey 3 3 1 6 307
There is the death of a Florence Isabell Ryrie-Butler in Sussex 1980 born 24/2/1884 but can’t find her birth. Could be a sister/sister in law to Henrietta, or not.
They get around a bit don't they. 1861 census of Hyde, Cheshire (RG9/2558, folio 101, page 30) shows father John (married) & son Denis BUTLER (single), both shown as Professors of Music, lodging at John St in the household of Ruth FIDLER. Still haven't found Denis in the 1871 census though. Oops should have noticed you had already found this census record! Janet
Me neither @janetbooth I found a Dennis Butler listed as a music teacher in Scotland Electoral Rolls in 1869-70 and 1870-71, so would expect him to be on the 1871 Scotland census.
I've been trying to find him too in the 1871 census, but with no luck at all Looking for him in the papers, The Era of the 9th April 1871 (so, a week after the census was taken) says that he was now 'disengaged' from being Leader and Musical Director of the Dundee Music Hall. The next definite sighting is in the Era of the 6th December 1874 when he is stated to have been the Musical Director of the Britannia Music Hall, Glasgow. The following year he is still there and is contracted for another year. So, where was he between April 1871 and sometime in 1874?
Yes, it arrived today - thanks for asking @MollyMay Father - Dennis Butler, Musician (Violin) - kind of who/what we expected. Henrietta gave her address as Late of 6 Laitwood Road, Balham, but now residing at 10 Tottenham Court Road. Clement George's address was also Late of 6 Laitwood Road, Balham, but now residing at Bellevue, Lodge Road, Croydon. Witnesses are not names I've come across - George Wilson and Ethel Taplin. Both gave their ages as 21. (off for my dinner now, but will be back later)
This is his parent' s address - 1901 census RG13/643/122/40 I can find an Ethel Taplin b1877 in 1891 a granddaughter to George and Charlotte Rushworth (an Eleanor Charlotte Rushworth married James Jones Taplin in 1873) RG12/441/122/32. Ethel marries in 1900, but neither Harriett or Clement are witnesses. 1901 cenus RG13/138/150/49 - I cannot see any connection to Harriett at this address, nor in 1899
Well, I don't think we can get any further with confirming who Kitty Winer's birth mother was. I'm torn between Henrietta or maybe her daughter Kathleen - perhaps Henrietta registered the birth for some reason, I just don't know. Kathleen was with her father and brother in 1921, but I'm sure Kitty is the daughter of one of them. I did find another newspaper report which I have been trying to sort out, as I'm wondering if it relates to Henrietta's mother Elizabeth. I don't really want to spend any more money on certificates (though I have just sent off for Kitty's marriage certificate, but doubt it will name a father). In the Croydon Times dated 12 Dec 1923 under the heading "DIED IN DAUGHTER'S ARMS", is an article about the death of a Mrs Elizabeth Butler (85) of Pawsons Road, Croydon. The daughter is named as Mrs Elizabeth ABBOTT. Elizabeth and Dennis had a daughter Elizabeth Ann born 1868. I found an Elizabeth Ann BUTLER on the marriage index in 1894, Croydon. One of the males was a William Adolphus ABBOTT - don't seem to be able to find them together though.
Forgot to mention, I also received the death certificate of Henrietta. Died 19 April 1922 at 178 Pawsons Road Croydon. Henrietta Trotty Ryrie BARBER otherwise BUTLER. Wife of Clement BARBER, Leather Manufacturer's Manager. Henrietta's death was registered on 24 April 1922 following a certificate received from the Coroner for Croydon. An inquest had been held on 22 April 1922.
In the Croydon Times, dated 29 April 1922, page 6, it says under burials, Barber, Henrietta T. P. 42 yrs., St. Saviour. April 27th.
William Adophus Abbott can be found with Elizabeth Ann Abbott age 29 in 1901. They are boarding with 60 year old Francis Elliott, widow at Cresswell Road Croydon. There is a previous marriage for William Adolphus to either Harriet Henderson or Emily Taylor. William is 38 and an organist. Elizabeth Ann is 29 born Scotland. Page 54 Piece 90 Schedule 366
I know Im expanding the family here but.... In 1881 William Adopholus Abbott is married to Harriet Henderson, he is a Professor of Music and they are living with Elizabeth Henderson his mother in law at Heather Villa Richmond Surrey. With them is 34 year old sister in law Adelaide who is a teacher of music. So no doubt the Elizabeth you are looking for in post#73 is the second wife of William Adopholus. Page 47 Piece 845/27 RG11
Thanks for these @Archie's Mum - I will look at them tonight, having just been asked if I fancied going to work, so supposed to be getting ready. William Adolphus married Harriet Maria Henderson, so maybe they got divorced or she died, though I'm sure I found them together after 1894. I'm probably getting confused. Gotta Go!