First off I want to thank everyone that helped me this far. Mr gr gr grandfather was George Armstrong and now I find he was one of several children born to John Armstrong who was married to Joan Wills. Their marriage was Aug 30 1787 at St Mary's and George was born in 1806. Now in searching the church records I almost got tripped up by the fact that in the same time frame there is also a John Armstrong in Ilminster that is married to Hannah that is having children. I'm trying to verify when my relative John was born and found via family search a John Armstrong christened at the Old Meeting Presbyterian on 20 Apr 1731 and his father is Andrew and his mother is Joan. The records at marriage time don't show age of the people so I'm stuck. Is this John christened in 1731 the one married to Hannah or is he the father of either John? For that matter they could all be related and the two Johns are II and III. I also find a John Armstrong baptised in 10 Nov 1765 Wayford Somerset with Andrew as a father and Ann as his mother. In the Somerset Bruton parish on 24 Sep 1764 I find John the son of James Armstrong Jr being christened. I find a burial record for John Armstrong 10 Mar 1805 at Lydeard St Lawrence. To complicate it even more it appears that both John Armstrongs having children around 1800 both had a son named John. I then find 4 burials of John Armstrong in 1854 in Bath , 1859 in Frome, 1861 in Chard and 1862 in Wells. Since I find both Baptisms and Christenings I figure I'm working with two different faiths. To compound my search troubles the 1841 census shows a John Armstrong 70 years old living by himself and he is from Ilminster. There is another one who is 77 living from Ilminster in what appears to be a home with multiple people of all ages.
Baptisms & Christenings occur in same faith Don, much confusion over which is what but a google may help you sort them. ie Baptism is connected to use of water, Christening welcomes child into the Church & is perhaps also naming day. It did happen tho' that an adult was sometimes Baptised/Christened before marriage or when changing religion- or starting a personal religious life. I will be corrected where necessary. I wonder if these are your people? England Marriages, 1538–1973 Andrew Armstrong married:Joan Whaites 22 June 1722 Abbey Or Saint Peter And Saint Paul, Bath, Somerset, England England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991 Andrew Armstrong burial:4 December 1763 Donyatt, Somerset, England Family search has several sibs for a John born to Andrew & Joan Ilminster Samuel Armstrong Event Type: Baptism C16 Jan 1728: Ilminster, Somerset Father's Name: Andrew Armstrong Mother's Name: Joan Armstrong Affiliate Publication Number: RG4_3265 from England Births and Christenings Andrew Armstrong +Wife:Joan Son: Samuel Armstrong Name: Samuel Armstrong Christening : 16 Jan 1727 : THE OLD MEETING PRESBYTERIAN,ILMINSTER,SOMERSET,ENGLAND Birth Date: 13 Jan 1727 Father's Name: Andrew Armstrong. same son?
The terms are interchangeable; some churches refer to baptisms and others to christenings. A baptism is the act of baptising the child (or adult!) with water. Christening is naming the child during the baptism. In the Baptism as laid down in the Book of Common Prayer, (I have an 1811 version) it says: Then the priest shall take the child into his hands, and shall say to the godfathers and godmothers, Name this child. And, then naming it after them, he shall dip it in the water discreetly and warily, saying, N (name of child) I baptise thee... etc
The trouble still is which one of the "John's is it" One was my Gr Gr Gr Grandfather married to Joan. Or is it the John that is married to Hannah. Both of which were having children during the same time span in Ilminster. Then both had a son named John and around 1854 to 1862 we have 4 John's die in Somerset.
Hello Don It won't be possible to pick the right John at this stage: you don't yet know how old your John was and there's no guarantee that he had been born in Ilminster. I don't have any magic answers to finding the right one, but below give a few ideas for research strategy. It may help to find out as much as you can about each of the candidate Johns, and their families, later in life. What did they do for a living? (might there be apprenticeship records?) When and where were they buried? (Burial registers from 1813 onwards should give ages - and earlier registers sometimes do too.) For those who died 1838 onwards you should be able to get death certificates. Again it's hard to identify the right John, so maybe focus on finding out where Joan is buried and that might lead you to her husband: perhaps they will even have a gravestone with useful clues on it. Check details of FreeReg coverage to see which burials are online. The Ilminster online parish clerk may be able to advise you on whether there are any gaps: http:// wsom-opc.org.uk/assets/components/opc_database/parisheslist.php?k=63 Some of the writing on that 1841 census for Ilminster is horribly faint, isn't it? I spotted one of the Johns you mentioned, the one shown as 70 (which could mean 70-74) and I think with occupation Ind[ependent]. Next door to him is a younger John Armstrong (50, i.e. 50-54), mason, with a Caroline Armstrong (15, i.e. 15-19). Perhaps John junior and Caroline are the son and grand-daughter of John senior? If so that may help in working out whether this John senior is yours or not. Try to track George's siblings too: did they stay in England? Can you find them on the census? If they moved away from Ilminster, might the parents have moved too? More questions than answers, I'm afraid! I hope this gives you some ideas though.
In case you didn't already know, for the purposes of civil registration of births, marriage and deaths (from July 1837 onwards), Ilminster was in the Chard registration district. There are death registrations for John Armstrongs in the Chard district in 1844 and 1856. Unfortunately the GRO index for this period doesn't show ages, but the death certificates would. The 1856 death registration (unless it's for a young child) should relate to someone who's still around on the 1851 census. No sign of a Joan, so she may have died before 1837 . . . unless her husband died first and she remarried.
It seems that this particular John didn't survive childhood. England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970 Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries Name: John Armstrong Mother: Joan Armstrong Father: Andrew Armstrong Baptism: 28 Apr 1731 - Ilminster, Somerset, England Vital: 28 Apr 1731 - Ilminster, Somerset, England
I'd hoped I would find that on Ancestry, in their scans of 'Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970'. I can see the baptism of John Armstrong on 28 April 1731 but haven't found a death/burial record yet. The register I'm looking at, 'Ilminster Old Meeting (Presbyterian) 1718-1785' (ref. RG 4/3265), only seems to have baptisms in it though. Does the entry on FamilySearch give an RG 4 reference? (I can't check: FamilySearch isn't working at all for me at the moment). Edited to add: maybe the 'Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries' bit is a red herring? If it only gives a baptism date it may be the baptism entry. Oops, late for work . . . had better go now.
Looking at FreeReg I see there isn't much overlap between the two sets of baptisms, John & Joan's children and John and Betty/Elizabeth's. Since John & Joan's son John was baptised in 1788, perhaps he is the one who married Betty Mitchell in 1808? There are several baptisms for children of John and Betty/Elizabeth, including a Caroline in 1822 (father's occupation = mason), who would fit nicely with the Caroline on the 1841 census with father(?) John and possibly next door to grandfather. A 39 year old Betty Armstrong was buried at Ilminster in 1824. Did John jr then marry a Hannah? A John Armstrong (mason) & Hannah had a son Samuel Mitchell Armstrong which might suggest Hannah was also a Mitchell. I haven't yet spotted a marriage for John & Hannah but haven't looked very hard. It seems quite likely from the above that the '70' year old John Armstrong in Ilminster in 1841 is the one who had been married to Joan. As the ages were rounded down on this census he could have been up to 74 years old, which gives an approx. birthdate of 1767 to 1771: earlier in this range is most likely if he married in 1787. I think it says 'y' for yes in the column asking whether born in Somerset, but whether he was from Ilminster we cannot tell.
Not sure why I assumed this was from FamilySearch when you didn't say so, Wendy. That's what comes of trying to answer questions before I'm awake. Now I see that it comes up if you search in Ancestry's 'Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries' category. However, I think they have totally confused the issue by putting it in that category: the entry they give is labelled as a baptism! On rechecking the original register I think they have the date wrong too. It's indexed on Ancestry as 28 April. The second digit of the date is rather blobby but I think it looks more like 20th than 28th. The next entry is for 23rd April. So this John could have survived infancy. However, we need to find a baptism for a later John (born 1760s?) before getting too carried away with the earlier Armstrongs in Ilminster.
In actuallity the occupation will help more than anything else. My Gr Gr Grandfather was a mason in Massachusettes and his father also appears to be a mason so it could have been a family business that the others got involved with. The seach goes on and gets put together with bits and pieces. Since I have been able to plug in info from the Ilminster records both Family search and Ancestry have started to produce more hits whereas before I kept getting few if any hits or a lot of misleading hits. In fact in Newburyport Mass is another Armstrong family so I'll need to research them to see if there is a connection. Thank You.
Another place to try is the National Burial Index on Findmypast: there are quite a few Ilminster Armstrongs there. I didn't spot your John & Joan but you might find some other pieces of the jigsaw there. For example they have a burial of a John Armstrong in 1861, shown as born about 1789 (maybe the son of John & Joan baptised in 1788?).
There you go Jane, all of your queries answered by yourself while I slumbered. I agree with #10 in that the date was 20th not 28th.having no title on the page may have led to transcriber error. No mention on it of 'private' or death. The Father's name Andrew bothered me too unless he used a 2nd name. They also had a dtr Jane presented as a burial in same manner as or John. I did find a marriage for Andrew to Hannah 1735 but no demise for Jane. All this was on the posted birth age of 1731 for John. the variety of dates adds to the confusion, we really need to know the first positive date & place that Don has before choosing a birth /marriage date & place hopefully before the burial.
