A little 'Griffin' imponderable.

Discussion in 'General Family History Queries' started by Ma-dotcom, Oct 13, 2015.

  1. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    This may be taking me from the 'Oh an easy one' to the 'get real' name search. I've been unable to find a William Richmond Griffin anywhere else. I do think I've connected the right people here but could use some fresh thoughts please.
    .
    :- Find no.1
    Marriage: 20 Dec 1874
    Parish: St John, Horselydown Borough: Southwark
    William GRIFFIN: c 1853 Age: 21 carman
    Father Name: William Richmond GRIFFIN - timber Merchant.
    wit's Ann Eliza & Frederick Horwood.
    [not yet found a William- timber merchant.]
    ..........
    Name: William Griffin
    Baptism Date: 23 May 1852
    William Griffin 23 May 1852 Southwark St Saviour Southwark .b.3 April Pts:-Jane Griffin,+ William Griffin,a potato merchant
    Parish or Poor Law Union: Southwark, St Saviour.
    Marriage William to Jane not found in parish records so no occupation available then.
    ............................
    Find no.2
    1861 England Census
    Name: William 'Griffon'-potato salesman- Age:35:c.1826.'Peckwick'(sic), Northamptonshire, [Peakirk]
    Spouse: Jane Griffin
    Civil Parish: Camberwell
    William Griffon 35 b.1826 Peakirk.
    Jane Griffin 33 b.1828 Plumstead
    Jane Griffin dtr,6 b.1855 Plumstead
    William Griffin son,4 b.1852 Plumstead
    John W Griffin son,2 b.1858 Southwark
    Mary Ann Allen 27 servant.
    Class: RG 9; Piece: 384; Folio: 123; Page: 42
    ..........
    possible
    England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007
    death:
    Jane Griffin,-1862
    Bermondsey, London, England
    .............
    Not found any of his Family in 1871.
    Possibility both William snr & Jane died in early 1860s.
    ..............
    find no.3
    1851- 13 Holcombs Bldgs
    William Griffin 25 -Warehouseman of Peakirk Northamptonshire.
    HO107; Piece: 1559; Folio: 132; Page: 34;
    ..............
    find no.4
    Apr.16 1826 William GRIFFIN son of ANN & JOHN a weaver-Peakirk, Northampstonshire
    ............
    find no.5
    1841 John Griffin 63 & 'John' Griffin 54 [Ann Griffin 54]
    both not of this County.
    HO107; Piece: 816; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Peakirk; County: Northamptonshire; Enumeration District: 5; Folio: 3; Page: 1;
    .........
    England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991
    John Griffin
    burial:
    2 July 1846
    Peakirk, Northampton, England
    ...........
    Ann Griffin
    burial:10 November 1852
    Peakirk, Northampton, England
    ..........
    Sisters Elvira & Eliza Griffin baptised Peakirk,21 April 1823. Eliza buried 6 may. 1823. Pts John & Ann. Elvira not found other-where.
    ..........
    Marriage of John & Ann not found due to unknown original locality.
    I wonder if her maiden name was Richmond? or was that a name out of the blue attached to William's Father on his marriage papers?.

    The nearest I've come is William Rickman Griffith,& I don't really think the families have blended.

    William Rickman Griffith
    Birth 12 Jan 1781,Horslydown.Surrey
    Father Jonathan,-Mother Sophia [Rickman]
    Monthly meeting Horsleydown, Southwark
    Record set,England & Wales, Society of Friends (Quaker) Births 1578-1841
    -----------------------------------------
    A William Parkinson Griffin was also born c 1826 in Peakirk,
    Baptism: 3 Jun 1826 - Peakirk,
    Pts: Margaret Griffin + Thomas Griffin. He appears to have stayed in Northamptonshire.
    .......................................
    Thanks for reading, any ideas happily accepted.
     
  2. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    William Griffin and Jane Brown 18/5/1851 St Leonards Shoreditch...Family Search
     
  3. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    That William was a carpenter, his father is William a labourer.
     
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  4. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Ditto Liz, 'tis what made me discount them, one for a Jane White loomed large, cannot now find what went along with that. Perhaps no Parish record.

    I tried tracing John W. to see if he named his Father. Not positve on outcome as there were three John Williams born within year range for 1861.
    Births Jun 1856
    Griffin John William Bermondsey 1d-77 Southwark?
    Births Jun 1857
    Griffin John William Greenwich 1d-599 -Plumstead?
    Births Dec 1858
    Griffin John William Kensington 1a-118 ?-

    A John William GRIFFIN married Mary Ann Jones[dtr of Edwin Jones] Woolwich 1d-1435
    Sep 1876 but I am not convinced he is the child in 1861.
     
  5. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    FMP has an entry on the Index to Death Duty that may be your William in 1861.
     
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  6. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Guess whose sub has just run out with that site?

    I did check FreeBMd & found several for both Will'm & Jane in early 1860s.
     
  7. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    The probate is on Anc - was just going to add it to my post -William Griffin late of Peakirk died 16/10/1861 probate to Jane widow of 108 South Terrace, Willow Walk, Bermondsey - effects under £600
     
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  8. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    You little ripper Lass, I was just looking there but that date didn't come up.
    still not happening.
    Ahh, got it under Northamptonshire. Explains why he's not found later, I wonder what became of his son John W. unsure of my findings for him later unless adopted/taken into care.
    thanks MollyMay
     
  9. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    It looks like Jane had remarried by 1871.

    15 year old William Griffin, ship brokers clerk, born Plumstead, Kent, was in Camberwell (80 Southampton Street) in 1871, shown as son in law of Charles Partridge, coach maker. Charles' wife Jane, 42, was also born in Plumstead (RG 10/737, f.115, p.17).

    A Charles Partridge married in the September quarter of 1863, Lambeth district. According to FreeBMD a Jane Griffin has matching references. Another transcriber has opted for Jesse Griffin but the original looks like Jane to me.

    Going back to your William who married in 1874, Wendy, what was his wife's name and what does he say on later censuses about his birthplace?
     
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  10. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I'm not certain John's middle initial is a W. Could it be an H? Some of the enumerator's H's look quite normal but the ones in 'Head' in each household are a bit odd. There's also a similar looking letter at the beginning of the street name; there was indeed a Hyndman Place on the Old Kent Road: see here for a mention in Charles Booth's poverty survey:
    http://
    booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b368/jpg/91.html
    If he is John H. rather than John W., another possibility for his birth might be John Henry Griffin, birth registered in the St Saviour district, last quarter of 1858. That hasn't helped me trace him any further though :(
     
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  11. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    As Wendy is or should be tucked up in bed by now I have been answering my own questions.;)

    I've found the marriage now, so know that this William's wife was Emma Harriet Craddock.

    Ancestry has baptisms for three children of William & Emma Harriet Griffin at Rotherhithe, William Charles and George Craddock (both bapt 1877; George born same year and William in 1875) and Henry Robert b.1880 bapt. 1881.

    There is a Willm Griffin, 27, carman, in Rotherhithe 1881 with wife Emma and children George C. (4) and Emma E. (2), parents & children all down as born in Rotherhithe.

    Later censuses muddy the water somewhat (if I am looking at the right ones) with William saying birthplace unknown in 1891 and born "Yorkshire Newbury" in 1901. :confused: (the only Newbury I know is in Berkshire).

    OK, don't panic . . . let's go back to that William Charles Griffin born 1875 and baptised 1877 but not with parents in 1881. I couldn't see a death so hoped he might be with rellies somewhere else. This one looks good!!!

    Newbarn Cottages, Cudham, Kent (RG 11/855, f.77, p.20)
    Joshua Hamblin, head, mar., 43, farm servant, b. Berks not known
    Jane Hamblin, wife, mar., 43, b. Berks Newbury
    John Richmon, son, un, 19, farm servant, b. Berks Newbury
    William Griffin, visitor, 5, b. Surrey Rotherhithe.

    With a Newbury connection AND a Richmon(d) in the household surely we must be getting warm now?
     
  12. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I think I see Joshua & Jane in Oxford in 1871, again shown as husband and wife. I can't see a marriage for them . . . but maybe that's not surprising as it looks like her actual husband John Richmond was still in Newbury with their children. :oops:

    There's a likely looking marriage in the Newbury district in the September quarter of 1853, when John Richmond & Jane Griffin have matching references.

    Phew! I need some chocolate now . . .
     
  13. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Oh I wish you could see the grin I can feel spreading over my face Jane. Thank you so much! ():-)
    I searched & searched myself into a tangle for two weeks before I posted this missive.
    Now I see where his son Robert Joshua may have got his 2nd name. I couldn't find a bapt. for him way back when I began looking & thought it may have been due to the death- after Private baptism- of his brother Henry Robert in 1881.
    Several Families seemed to have stopped baptisms after such an event.

    It's really a titch early in the morning for such a head spin.

    Births Jun 1838
    GRIFFIN, Jane Cradock Abingdon 6-111
    Hmmmm. Anything there? o_O Did William b 1826 of Peakirk stop off in Berkshire?
    A few Williams born Abingdon & Newbury.
    A coffee I think before more delving.
    Jane your work is superb as always, & you are so appreciated. {-(^^)-}
     
  14. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Sorry to muddy the waters
    Groom: Charles Partridge (Single)
    Bride: Jane Griffin (Widowed)
    Marriage: 5th July 1863, Kennington, Surrey
    G/Father: Edward Lewis Partridge
    B/Father: John Henry Brown

    This may be her previous marriage

    Groom: William Griffin
    Brown: Jane Brown
    Marriage: 18th May 1851, Saint Leonards, Shoreditch
     
  15. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    This is the marriage mentioned in #2 by A.M., Chimp. Discounted due to his occ. at the time. However he may well be the William found in Newbury Berkshire in early censuses. I've spent much of today checking these people out & had to leave it to sort out other little daily doings.
    1861
    RG 9; Piece: 392; Folio: 44; Page: 2;
    Charles Partridge -coachmaker-Widower. 1821 London, Middlesex, Lodger, Deptford St Paul, Surrey [I think his first wife was a Jane also]
    .......
    Marriages Sep 1863 as you posted:
    GRIFFIN Jane Lambeth 1d-352
    Partridge Charles Lambeth 1d-352
    Now I am a little more scrambled.
    Which William married who.

    edit: This William may well have been a carpenter at some time, the one I followed appeared to be a warehouse man.
    Am now unsure if we are following two families & which is correct.
    Newbury or Peakirk ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
  16. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Sorry to scramble your brain Wendy :D sorry I meant :oops: :)
     
  17. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Sweet thing ;)
    I must go. late for K.P.:D
     
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  18. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Thanks for checking that marriage, Chimp. :) I am pretty sure now that the William Griffin who married Jane Brown (if he is the one who was a potato dealer later!) is nothing to do with Wendy's William Griffin, b. about 1854. William-the-potato-dealer and Jane did have a son William but he was a ship broker's clerk in 1871, with his mother and stepfather Charles Partridge. I haven't traced him after this but don't think he is Wendy's William.

    My alternative theory, which needs a lot more investigation, is that Wendy's William Griffin is the boy enumerated as William Richmond in Newbury on the 1861 and 1871 censuses. His mother was Jane Griffin, who married John Richmond in 1853. Whether William was born before or after that marriage isn't clear yet. You'd think that if John Richmond was his biological father and the one with whom he grew up, William would name him as his father when he married. But we have the added complication of William's mother finding herself a new "husband". Had she married bigamously? Was William deliberately vague about his birthplace and his father's name, fearful that his mother would get into trouble if the truth came out? Had he disowned his father? Or perhaps he had discovered that John wasn't his father at all, so made up a different one?

    So many questions and so few answers! One thing we do know is that William must have still been in touch with his mother, since his own son William Charles Griffin (b.1875) is with Jane and Joshua Hamblin on the 1881 census.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
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  19. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I fear this may be the same John Richmond who had married Jane Griffin. From censuses John & Jane had considerably more than four children but the article may only refer to the ones who were still dependent on John.

    Berkshire Chronicle, 19 February 1870

    NEWBURY BOROUGH BENCH. --FRIDAY.
    Present, the Mayor (R.A. Ryott), and J H. Mason, Esqs.
    John Richmond was charged with allowing his family to become chargeable to the Newbury Union. -- Mr. Ward, master of the Union proved that the defendant's family, four in number, had been in the establishment since the 1st of January, at the cost of £4 18s. up to the present time. He had given the defendant several notices that he was to take them out, by order of the guardians. Defendant replied that if he took the children out they would have to lay in the streets, as he had no home or bed for them to lay on. His wife had made away with his goods. --Mr. Mason: What evidence have you that the defendant is able to maintain them? --Mr Ward: He is an able-bodied man. --Mr Mason: Yes, but I think you must go a little further in this case --Superintendent Deane stated that the defendant was out of work, but his conduct was disgraceful laying about at public-houses from morning till night. --The Bench sentenced him to three weeks' imprisonment with hard labour, at the same time informing him that at the expiration of that time if he did not take the children out, the Union authorities would proceed against him again. -Defendant: I shall not come back again.

    It looks like Berkshire Record Office has admission records for the Newbury Union workhouse for this period. Next time I'm there I can check those and the Newbury parish registers (which don't seem to be covered in any of the online indexes I've checked).
     
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  20. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    I tried sorting this lot yesterday, but was in & out shopping & washing sheets etc., today is going to be a hotty so I may repeat my earlier way of a notepad for each family-4 of them it seems & work out which one is where & -if that is what happened- how William of Newbury also claimed Peakirk as birth place even unto death. See MollyMays#7 :-
    #13, the Jane Cradock GRIFFIN b. Abingdon must be coincidentall to the name of William's wife Emma Craddock, but today I cannot find another Jane b 1837 -1839.except:-
    Jane Griffin: christening: 22 April 1835 ABINGDON, BERKSHIRE, ENGLAND
    Pts:Edward Griffin +:Ann


    Another Jane had Pts Thomas & Hannah
    1851 Class: HO107; Piece: 1728; Folio: 476; Page: 2
    ..............................
    Shall try for her Parents & see if there is a definite connect to John & Ann who lived in Peakirk.
    I did find one marriage for a Thomas Griffin to Hanna Burgess in Marsh Gibbon, Buckinghamshire, 1827also a dtr Elizabeth born to an Hanna Burgess
    Christening, 24 Oct 1824.
    I may end up having researched every Griffin in Berkshire & surrounding areas. :p
     

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