A "pesky" mother - in - law and an elusive father - in - law!!

Discussion in 'British Census' started by The Artful Dodger, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Anne George nee Dell is such a lady. She married John George 19 Sep. 1836 in Hemel Hempstead, Herts. Their daughter Emma married Alfred Rowledge 17 Oct. 1859 in St. Marylebone, Westminster[?] and from the marriage cert. it would appear that her father was an Engineer and was deceased. I have my doubts about the occupation stated but am satisfied it is the correct parentage.

    In 1851 census - H0107/1700/232/17 - Ann and John along with their children are living @ Little Common, Great Stanmore, Harrow, Middlesex and John is a labourer.
    The children were:
    Emma - age 11 - actually born 2nd q. 1839
    John - age 11 - actually born 1st q. 1843
    Philip - age 4 - actually born 3rd q. 1846
    Susan - age 2 - actually born 2nd q. 1849

    In addition to those children above, it would appear that that they lost several as infants:
    Sarah - born 2nd q. 1838 and died 3rd q. 1838 - Hemel Hempstead
    Unnamed - born 1st q.1841 and died same q. 1841 - Hemel Hempstead
    Mary Ann - born 4th q.1841 and died 2nd q. 1842 - Hemel Hempstead
    James - born 2nd q. 1845 and died 3rd q. 1845 - Hendon Union
    Unnamed - born 2nd q. 1848 and died sme q. 1848 - Hendon Union
    Ann - born 4th q. 1854 and died same q. 1854 - Hendon Union

    I thought I had matched the death of the John George - as noted on the marriage cert. - to a death in Hemel Hempstead, but on checking the age of death in the GRO the one I had - 1st q. 1859 vol. 3a page 219 was aged 16 - is obviously not my John.

    I have located the 3 surviving children [other than my Emma] as follows in 1861
    John - is a Lodger occupation Hammerman and living with the Austin family in St. George Hanover Square - RG9/40/52/8
    Philip - is a Farm Servant living with his employer William Woodward in St. Albans, Herts. - RG9/831/53/10
    Susan - is living with her Grandparents James and Susan Dell in St. Albans, Herts. - RG9/839/107/10

    Can John and Ann be found in 1861 and later?

    Looking at John George prior to his marriage to Ann Dell, he was likely the son of James and Sarah [nee Beck] and was baptised in St. Pater St. Albans Jan. 1815 and
    Ann Dell was likely the daughter of James and Susannah [maiden name not found] and was baptised in Hemel Hempstead, Herts. 11 Jul. 1819.
     
  2. GrannyBarb

    GrannyBarb Custodian of the Family Accounts

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,087
    Likes Received:
    4,974
    Location:
    Lower Alabama, USA
    I guess it would depend what kind of Engineer? Railroad, Civil, etc. o_O
     
  3. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    Congleton, Cheshire
    Burial at St John the Evangelist, Great Stanmore, on 24 July 1855 of Ann GEORGE, Stanmore, aged 38 - image available to view on Ancestry.

    I cannot find one for husband John at the moment with any certainty.

    Janet
     
    The Artful Dodger likes this.
  4. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    Congleton, Cheshire
    John snr was not buried at St John the Evangelist between 1851 & 1860 according to the parish register. The only likely burial record I can find on Ancestry is one at Bratton, Somerset on 22 June 1856 for John GEORGE, aged 40. I cannot find a likely John GEORGE (1816 plus or minus 5 years) in the 1851 census of Bratton on either Ancestry or FMP. There is one in Leigh on Mendip, Somerset in the 1851 but he is still living there in 1861. Don't know what he would be doing in Somerset, though.

    Could John snr's occupation on Emma's marriage record have been Engine Driver? This is the occupation for his father given on son Philip's second marriage record.

    Janet
     
    The Artful Dodger likes this.
  5. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I have been looking at the marriages of Philip George.
    Marriage # 1 - to Georgina Fulluck @ St. Peter CHurch, Paddington 28 Oct. 1874 - Philip was a Carman. He named his father as John George deceased.

    2 years later -
    Marriage #2 - to Mary Ann Leigh @ the Parish Curch, St. Marylebone 3 Sep. 1876 - Philip was a Carman. He name his father as John George - Engine Driver. No mention of his status to deceased or not.

    When Emma married Alfred Rowledge 17 Oct. 1859 in St. Marylebone, the church was indicated as Trinity Church. Could this be the same church as to where her brother's 2nd marriage took place?

    As for the occupation of John it definitely looks like Engineer [ which could mean engine driver] and under that is "de" with a line through which could mean deceased.

    The burial in Bratton, Somerset on 22 Jun. 1856 looks interesting. This was less than a year after Ann died and 3 years before Emma married. I think I have no alternative but to buy the PDF from GRO to confirm if this my John.

    edited to add:
    Just looked at the GRO - the death of John George in Frome [which included Bratton] 2nd q. 1856 vol. 5c page 359 shows the age at death as 3. Do you think this could be an error in transcription or in the Parish register?

    There was a John George - MMN CURLEY - born 3rd q. 1853 in Frome.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  6. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Looking into Susan after 1861:
    1871 census - RG910/70/81/57 - a 22 year old servant in Fulham.
    1881 census - RG11/92//98/9 - a 31 year old Laundrymaid @ 15 Grosvenor Square, St. George Hanover Square

    She married John Sparkes 21 Mar. 1891 @ St. John Church Fulham. Her age was shown as 37 and a Spinster. Father was John George - Engine Driver and deceased.

    I have not found them in 1891 census but did find in 1901 and 1911. They had no children. John died 3rd q. 1935 in Fulham age 76 and Susan died 4th q. 1921 age 73 in Fulham - both from GRO.
     
  7. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I wonder - Could this chap be my John? Death in St. Albans R.D. 2nd q. 1855 age 44.

    John's place of birth according to 1851 census was St. Albans and the age in 1851 was indicated as 35.
    He was baptised in St. Albans looks like Jan. 1815
    He married in Hemel Hempstead 19 Sep 1836 - image on FMP - no age stated. Hemel is maybe 6-8 miles from St. Albans,
    After marriage, Emma was born in Hemel, a son [John] was born in Bushey. Post #1 tells of 3 babies that died and then family moved to Great Stanmore.
    Ann was buried in Great Stanmore 24 Jul. 1855.

    Could both John and Ann have been ill in 1855 and took their youngest daughter back to Ann's parents in Hemel? John could have stayed in St. Albans and died Apr-Jun. q 1855 and Ann returned to Great Stanmore where she died - possible?
     
  8. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    Congleton, Cheshire
    Perhaps, Colin, but St Albans reg district also covers the parish of Sandridge and there is a John GEORGE, a Farmer/Farm Servant born Sandridge, in the 1841/51 census records of Sandridge who does not appear to be in the 1861 census record. Again the age at death is incorrect for him as he would seem to have been born c1816/17, but perhaps you ought to bear him in mind as another possibility for the death registration in St Albans.

    Janet
     
  9. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Janet I may be procrastinating about spending 6 quid on the death PDF from Frome [which states the deceased was 3 years old] but can you find any other death registration that matches the burial record you found on Ancestry?

    I agree with you that the parish register says the age age is 40 and I can see clearly that the residence is Bratton and that there were only 2 burials for the year 1856.

    On the the GRO I have a death of a John George age 40 in the R.D. of Wincanton, Somerset 2nd q. vol. 5c page 352

    Should I order this one do you think?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  10. burt

    burt Active Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    Wales
    Bratton [Seymour] was in the Registration District of Wincanton, Colin.
     
    janetbooth and The Artful Dodger like this.
  11. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    Congleton, Cheshire
    Burt is spot on! Looking at the birth registrations of GEORGE children when mother's maiden name is CURLEY brings up at least another couple of children, namely Elizabeth in 1851 and another John in 1856 and looking for them on the 1861 census shows a William GEORGE & wife Ann living in Frome, he being a 48 year old Ag Labourer, so I think that definitely confirms the removal of the John GEORGE death in 1856 from the equation. Still don't know why your John GEORGE would be in Somerset unless it was something to do with his profession of Engine Driver.

    Janet
     
  12. burt

    burt Active Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    Wales
    The only reason I can think of is railways. I have no immediate idea
    as to when the line was built from Frome, through Bruton, to Ansford,
    Castle Cary en route to Taunton, or when the line south from Ansford to
    Yeovil, but they were all about 2/3 miles from Bratton.
     
  13. burt

    burt Active Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    130
    Location:
    Wales
    I see Bruton station was opened in 1850.
     
    janetbooth likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice