Ann Davies b about 1781

Discussion in 'London' started by annabel, May 16, 2020.

  1. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    I'm wondering if Joseph is the son of Dorothy and Thomas Turner, which would make Lucy Davies his cousin. Dorothy and Thomas had 4 children that I can find- George Thomas 1775, Charles 1777, Thomas 1781, and Samuel 1787. There as a nice big gap there for a Joseph to fit in, but again I can't find a baptism. However there is also reported to be a James Woodward Turner born 1780 who has no record either

    I have tried to find a will of Thomas or Dorothy to no avail, but I don't have the knack. If I'm not outstaying my welcome, can their will/s be found to see if there's a clue? They were both born around 1747
     
  2. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Do you know the birth year of Joseph Turner is 1772 or is that just the birth year of the two Joseph Turner's you have found?

    Dorothy Woodward and Thomas Turner married on 6 June 1775.
     
  3. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    I have no birth date for Joseph, I just looked for a man about Ann's age who died before 1841. Those two Davis had the same dob by accident. He could have been born around 1785 perhaps if Dorothy's.
     
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  4. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Could this be Ann Turner in 1851 - Clarendon Road Kensington
    HO107/1468/825/29
    Elizabeth Clafton (I am sure it is Clifton) b1784
    Ann Turner sister b1786
    both have fund holders as occupation
    Sarah Pickett and Jassy Hamilton - servants (from FMP)

    I haven't got time today to see if I can link Elizabeth Clifton to Ann - perhaps someone else would look.
    Elizabeth can be found on RG09/15/3/9 in 1861 and dies 1862

    If you try and find the 1851 census on Anc look as follows
    upload_2020-5-21_8-27-46.png
    :headbang: :nailbiting: :rolleyes:
     
  5. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Elizabeth CLIFTON & Ann TURNER are still alive in the 1861 census of Kensington. Elizabeth is described as a widow & Ann is shown as unmarried, both described as Fundholders, so unlikely to be your Ann TURNER - shame!

    Right, going back to basics and the information on the parish register regarding the marriage of Joseph & Ann at Lambeth St Mary. Both were of the parish and both signed, one of the witnesses being a William John TURNER, a likely relative of Joseph, who also signed.

    There is a William John TURNER born 16 January & baptised 4 February 1770 at Bermondsey St Mary Magdalen, son of Edward & Mary TURNER, Shoemaker. They also had a son Joseph born 25 August & baptised 13 September 1778 at St Mary Magdalen. Now, I like the sound of this baptism at St Mary Magdalen on 5 May 1801, Joseph John Davis TURNER son of Joseph & Ann TURNER, Cordwainer, Newsam? Row. Does the name of this child ring a bell with you? How sure are you that you have the correct marriage for your Ann DAVIS? The reason being that this Joseph & Ann TURNER are still alive in the 1841 census of Bermondsey, living at Willow Walk. Ann TURNER is shown as aged 60 and not born in the county of Surrey and they have a 6 year old Susannah TURNER living with them. Joseph TURNER is described as a Widower in the 1851 census of Bermondsey and there is a burial at St Mary Magdalen on 1 July 1849 for Ann TURNER of Willow Walk, aged 71. Of course the information I have found might not refer to your Joseph & Ann TURNER but ….. Tracing back Ellen SKINNER, the granddaughter of your Ann TURNER, is she the daughter of William SKINNER & Mary Ann TURNER? If so there is a baptism at St James Piccadilly in 1815 for Marianne daughter of Joseph & Ann TURNER he being shown as a Stone Mason. Previous baptism in 1809 for a Mary Anne daughter of Joseph & Ann TURNER.

    Not too sure this has helped at all and please feel free to ignore it if it doesn't tie in with the information you already have.

    Janet
     
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  6. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    I think that in the 1861 census the next person down is Ann Turner, although Anc says Levens. In this one she says she is unmarried while Elizabeth is a widow

    Snap Janet
     
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  7. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Well I think you have worked out the answer to the Joseph Turner Ann Davies marriage. I think that proves that Ann Davies is a red herring. Drat!

    You are correct that William Skinner and Mary Ann Turner are the parents of Ellen. Mary Ann's dob ranges from 1809-1813 in St James Piccadilly. The 1809 birth is the only one I have found with a similar criteria criteria with mother Ann. Not sure what to make of the 1814 birth.

    There are only 3 possible marriages I have found to Ann Davies 1800, Ann Hambledon 1803 Marylebone, Ann Yeomans 1807 St Andrews by the Wardrobe. Given Ann is with Lucy Davis in 1841 I thought that Davies must be the one :(
     
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  8. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    The Joseph Turner that @janetbooth found in 1841 and 1851 is on the 1861 census at 56 Willow Walk, together with a grandaughter Susannah Fleming.

    He died in 1865 and was buried on 20 July 1865, Nunhead Cemetery, Southwark - aged 87 of Willow Walk.
     
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  9. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Annabel, I think the PCC Will of an Ann TURNER of St James Place, Hampstead Road, widow, dated 2 April 1845 and proved at London on 16 July 1846, may well help you. In it she mentions her sister Elizabeth TOMES?, her niece Mary Ann SKINNER wife of William SKINNER of Bury St, St James Westminster, niece Sarah Ann CUSHING wife of Francis CUSHING, servant Charlotte Eliza DAWES and her sister in law Mary Ann EASTOFF. She makes her two nieces Mary Ann SKINNER & Sarah Ann CUSHING her residuary legatees. So this would appear likely to be the Ann TURNER we have found in the 1841 census and who is therefore not the mother of Mary Ann SKINNER nee TURNER but her aunt and presumably married to a brother of your Joseph. The Will is available to view on Ancestry.

    Janet
     
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  10. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Ooooh you are so clever, thank you. I'm off to have a look but it sounds as if you have helped me find out who Joseph was. Fantastic!
     
  11. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Bit more information on the above Ann TURNER. In her Will she wishes to be buried in the Vault at Hampstead where her sister Elizabeth TOMES is buried. Burial at St John Hampstead on 1 June 1829 for an Elizabeth TOMES, aged 52. Baptism on 25 February 1777 at St Marylebone for an Elizabeth daughter of James & Ann TOMES followed by the baptism on 30 October 1778 of a daughter Ann. Ann TOMES married Charles TURNER at St Pancras Chapel on 18 October 1804, by licence. Both signed as did the witnesses Mary Ann TOMES & Jas Woodward TURNER? All these records are on Ancestry. If this is correct, then your Joseph TURNER is likely to be the brother of the Charles TURNER who married Ann TOMES. Enjoy!

    Janet
     
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  12. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Amazing! I already had Ann Tomas because of the witness being James Woodward Turner. This is the only thing that suggests which family James is in (apart from the Woodward bit). There doesn't seem to be a birth for him, or for my Joseph it seems. But it seems from this they were the children of Dorothy Woodward and Thomas Turner found above, and Lucy Davies was Joseph's cousin. Thank you so much
     
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  13. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Well! I just accidentally found the will of George another son of Dorothy and Thomas. In it he mentions his niece Mary Ann, the daughter of his brother THOMAS and wife of William Skinner. So Joseph did not exist and her mother is someone else entirely. Right family, wrong brother! No wonder in couldn't find him
     
  14. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Don't you just love Wills!! The 1851 census of St Paul, Hammersmith, shows Mary as born c1813 at St James, 1861 & 1871 census records as born c1811 in London - very helpful! Parish Register of St James Piccadilly shows Mary Ann TURNER born 5 December 1808 and baptised 18 January 1809, daughter of Thomas & Sarah TURNER - she sounds a likely candidate doesn't she. At least you appear likely to have sorted it out in the end, Annabel! Looks as if William SKINNER left a Will in 1870 according to Ancestry's National Probate Calendar records.

    Janet
     

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