Another Ackerman headache

Discussion in 'Dorset' started by The Artful Dodger, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Have you actually seen the image of the certificate, anywhere, MollyMay? I have a 'nasty feeling' about Caroline.
     
  2. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Yes it is on FMP
     
  3. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    That's what I suspected.
     
  4. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    It would appear that something is 'out of kilter' here and is muddying the water.
    1]There is a baptism of a Caroline Potter dau. of Elizabeth [no father mentioned on transcription] in Colyton, Devon on 2 June 1822.

    2] On 23 June 1845 in Axminster, Devon a Caroline Potter - occupation Servant - age 23 married Samuel Rice - occupation - Smith - age 26. Caroline signed her name on document as did Samuel Rice. Caroline named her father as John Potter a Shoemaker. One of the witnesses was Mary Ann Potter - who also signed her name. We have found a Non-conformist baptism for a Mary Ann Potter dau. of John [a Shoemaker] and Eliza in Charmouth, Dorset in 1816, but have so far not found a corresponding baptism in Charmouth for Caroline.

    3] 1851 census - H0107/1861/237/31 - has Samuel age 32 - occ. Coach Smith, Caroline age 29 - occ. Dressmaker - born Colyton, Devon and a 3 year old daughter named Elizabeth - born Devon. As I cannot reconcile the place of birth in Devon, for Elizabeth, I have not been able to find a birth registration or baptism. The family was living in Dorset in 1851

    4] Several events happen between 1851 and 1861:
    a] Samuel Rice dies in Bothenhampton, Dorset and is buried 1 September 1852
    b] A daughter name Mary Ann Rice was baptised in Bothenhampton, Dorset on 3 January 1851. I cannot find a birth, death or burial record for her - but she is also not on the 1851 census.
    c] After the death of Samuel, Caroline marries Benjamin Welch in Bothenhampton, 23 October 1853. Both were of full age - he was a Bachelor [occ. Shipwright] and she a widow [no occ.]. She named her father as John - a Shoemaker.
    d] A son Joshua Jesse Potter Welch is born and is baptised 25 December 1854 in Bothenhampton.
    e] By 1860 the family has moved to Hampshire and a son -may have been born and is indicated as 9 months in the 1861.

    5] RG9/645/12/17 - Newtown, Alverstoke, Hampshire: Benjamin - age 34 - Shipwright - born Pilsdon, Caroline age 38 - no occ.- born Charmouth, Mary A. R - age 9 - born Bothenhampton [no satisfactory baptism found so 'maybe' she is the one baptised in 1851], Joshua J.P. - age 6 - born Bothenhampton, and William J.P. age 9 months - born Newtown

    I'm getting tired so am leaving this now and will continue with 1871 and later tomorrow
     
  5. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Continuation of post #24 - brings us to the 1871 census - and the 2 Caroline Welch's appear:
    6] Census records found for 1871
    a] RG10/1149/57/42 - Caroline - age 48 - no occupation or marital status noted - born Colyton, Devon, is living with her son - William age 10 - born Gosport. They are living in Alverstoke.

    b] RG10/2029/81/10 - Caroline - age 50 - a Widow and living in Bridport with her 4 children and a 4 year old grandson. This is not my Caroline as in 1861 census she was the wife of Joseph and had 6 children. Also have accounted for this family family in 1881, 1891 1901 when Caroline is a Pauper in a a Charity House and dies in January 1902.

    7] Since neither of the ones from 1871 seem to fit I have looked for anything that might shed a light:
    a] A Benjamin Welch age abt. 36 was working his passage to Australia as a Cabin Steward for a Mr. Alfred on board "Polmaise' arriving Sydney on 2 June 1862.
    b]There are no sightings found of Elizabeth Rice after 1851 census, nor Mary Ann Rice after 1861 census.
    c] There is no sighting found for Joshua Jesse Potter Welch after his baptism and the 1861 census.
    d] As for their last apparent child - he is with the family in 1861. He next surface - still in Alverstoke - where he is baptised as William John Potter Welch on 14 June 1874. Parents are named as Benjamin and Caroline

    And then they all are lost - so what happened to them?
     
  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    If you look at the original entry on Ancestry - even though they have indexed the year as 1851 the last two entries on the page (one being Mary Ann) are clearly maked in the margin as 1852.
    So she is unlikely to be on the 1851 census and there is a birth registered which could be her.
     
  7. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    FMP has her place of birth as Chickerell Dorset
    There is a birth reg for Elizabeth Rice June qtr 1848 Weymouth 8 155
     
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  8. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Hi Sue. - there is a baptism 3 January 1851 in Bothenhampton as transcribed - parents Samuel and Caroline. I accepted the transcription without looking at the image. Now I have looked at the image and it is on a double page and the last 2 entries have the year 1852.

    You are a wiz. Now found her in 1871. You've also given me the birthplace of Elizabeth
     
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  9. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Ancestry has the baptism of Elizabeth Rice d/o Samuel and Caroline (Cardine in the transcription) on 8/2/1852 in Bothenhampton
     
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  10. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Starting now to make sense - should have looked at the image on Ancestry before I put my 'foot in it'.

    So Elizabeth was born in Chickerell, Dorset and registered in Weymoth. Then we come to 1851 census and the family - mum, dad and Elizabeth and they are in Bridport.

    Later in 1851, they move to Bothenhampton and they are blessed with Mary Ann who is baptised 3 January 1852. This is the last baptism on the page #65 and the 2nd entry on page #66 is for the baptism of Elizabeth. Then Samuel become ill and dies - burial 1 September 1852.

    We know that in the 1851 census - Samuel indicates his place of birth as Dalwood, Devon and Caroline indicates her place of birth as Colyton, Devon - and that they married in Axminster, Devon 23 June 1845. A witness was Mary Ann Potter - no indication obviously as to relationship, but seems close as to the naming of their 2nd child.

    We have census reference only now for 1871:
    RG10/1149/89/50 - Alverstoke, Hampshire - both Elizabeth and Mary Ann are living and working as Domestic Servants for 2 separate families and live next door. to each other.
     
  11. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Elizabeth has now been located as a 13 year old servant in Alverstoke - 1861 census - RG9/645/36/1.

    Her parents and baby sister and 2 half-brothers - are located at - RG9/645/12/17
     
  12. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I cannot find anything to prove it, but I wonder if the Elizabeth who gives birth to Caroline in Colyton is somehow related to Mary Ann (whose father is John the shoemaker). I was hoping to find they were sisters and then Caroline was using her grandpa's name as her father.
    It also looks likely that the Elizabeth and William in Alverstoke in 1871 is your lady, especially as William is then baptised there in 1874 - it could be that you found Benjamin heading off to Australia leaving the family behind.
     
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  13. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    I like your thinking but the boy with Caroline [her birthplace Colyton] has his birthplace as Gosport.

    Am trying to track him after 1871 census and his baptism in 1874..

    If Benjamin did buzz off to Australia in 1862 - then 10 years on he could have been dead and she was free to marry. Possible that she met someone in Alverstoke - baptised William as the name seems to elicit connections to her family - and then either took the plunge to marry - or died.
     
  14. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    William could have joined the Navy

    1881 RG11/5638/31/3 Royal Navy at Sea - ship Euphrator
    Willm Welch b1859 Gosport - married - Stoker

    If you google Alverstoke it comes up as Alverstoke, Gosport, Hants
     
  15. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    It looks like William married in 1880
    Sept qtr 1880 Alverstoke 2b 881
    On of the possible spouses is Katherine Wingate
    18881 census RG11/1164/92/6 - 12 Russell Street, Alverstoke
    sees the Wingate family and
    Kate Welch b1860 married - stokers wife RN
     
  16. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Kate can be found alone in 1891 with a 3 year old son James in Alverstoke RG12/879/133/25
    and by 1901 William is back home in Alverstoke with her and they have 3 daughters RG13/1011/36/21
    By 1911 William is a RN pensioner, they are still in Alverstoke, James is in the Royal Marines RG14 PN5639 SN19
     
  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    There is a marriage of Caroline Welch June qtr 1877 Alverstoke 2b 887
    Jane Adams Hill, George Parker and Edward Francis Williamson are also listed.
    I can find Edw F Williamson with wife Jane in 1881 (RG11/1164/90/1).
    I cannot find Caroline and George Parker.
     
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  18. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    With the help of another member I found this thread
    and so far have not been able to find the census reference on Ancestry

    Not unduly worried as in 1841 - we have Benjamin and Sarah - and Benjamin's 3 sons in 1841.

    So I'm now reviewing this thread and if I can will come back to it later
     
  19. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Colin,

    I cannot find it on Ancestry either, even trying others on the same page, in case they had a different name transcribed for Benjamin and Sarah, but no sign of the page.
    It says

    Benjamin Welsh head married b1795 Pilsdon - ship joiner
    Sarah Welsh wife married b1791 Stoke Abbott

    Address:- Watton Symondsbury Bridport Dorset
     
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  20. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Thanks for this - it fits nicely as later census records show them still in the same general area.
     
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