Baptism Register help please.

Discussion in 'Church Records' started by The Artful Dodger, Apr 29, 2014.

  1. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    I have 2 baptism entries for daughters of Isaac and Martha Reach. The location i St. George in the East - borough Tower Hamlets.

    My trouble is in reading the word after the name of Martha - is it her maiden name or something else?

    Baptism #1:
    Mary - daughter of Isaac - a Cordwainer - baptised 4 May 1794 - and Martha

    Baptism #2:
    Hannah - daughter of Isaac - a Cordwainer - born 11 February 1799 and baptised 7 April 1799 - and Martha
     
  2. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    It is Isaac's address Colin. For Mary it reads CANNON ST[REET]. For Hannah it reads BETTS ST[REET]
     
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  3. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Thank you - that helps immensely.

    Isaac and Martha appear to have split their time between Suffolk and Middlesex as in addition to these 2 they baptised several children in Suffolk which I found in England and Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers 1567-1970. The Denomination was Wesleyan.

    Am I correct that these baptisms in St. George in the East ollowed the same pattern?
     
  4. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I'm not clear what you mean by 'following the same pattern'?
     
  5. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    What I meant by this was the Religious affiliation.
     
  6. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Do you have any evidence that the Isaac and Martha in London are the same couple who were in Suffolk?

    If they were different couples then you wouldn't have to make them 'split their time between Suffolk and Middlesex' or switch from parish church to Wesleyan chapel when baptising their children.
     
  7. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Not so much hard evidence - rather a lot of circumstantial evidence that makes me feel comfortable that there is only one couple.


     
  8. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    At the end of the day, it's your tree, so it's your decision what level of evidence you think is sufficient.

    If it was my tree I think I would want to check that there wasn't still an Isaac Reach in London after he is supposed to have moved to Bury St Edmunds. Just sayin'. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  9. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    So you think I'm "Barking up the wrong tree" eh?
     
  10. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I'm not sure, Colin, it's just the scientist in me I suppose. It makes me a sceptical old so-and-so who likes to see some hard evidence.

    Of course if there are different couples called Isaac & Martha, there should be two marriages, and two sets of burials. But the records aren't necessarily online, especially for Suffolk, which is particularly badly covered by online parish registers.

    Sometimes it's easier to rule things out than to rule them in. That's why I would recommend checking to see if you can find an Isaac Reach in London after 1800. You might like to try (for example) land tax records and burials on Ancestry. Also try Access to Archives (Google will find it). From the address on all of these, I think they all relate to the same person.
     
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  11. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    As I have mentioned before, my computer is 'sick' and I've just lost email to boot!!

    Have seen the Land Tax Records for 1803-1812 which indicate that Isaac paid Land Tax in St. George in the East. This is probably where he was a Cordwainer.

    He died in St. George in the East and was buried on 9 August 1818.

    Is it possible that he stayed in St. George in the East between 1803 and 1812 but spent time in Suffolk and he and Martha had the following children who were baptised there?:
    James - born 2 Nov. 1804 - bapt. 15 Jun. 1807
    Samuel - born 14 Apr. 1806 - bapt. 15 Jun. 1807
    Joseph - born 22 Jun. 1810 - bapt. 18 Jul. 1810
    William - born 3 Nov. 1812 - bapt. 13 Dec. 1812.

    My belief is that Martha and the children left Suffolk shortly after the last baptism and settled with Isaac in St. George in the East where he died.

    Of the other children - 2 appeared to follow in the trade of Isaac - Thomas - born 7 Mar. 1797 and bapt. 28 Mar. 1797 - and - John bapt. 19 Nov. 1798 - returned to Suffolk and continued as Boot and Shoemakers until their deaths there in 1876.
     
  12. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I would want to gather more information before trying to work out who was who and what was what. From the evidence I have seen I would say that there isn't yet enough information to decide.

    There's no harm speculating what might have happened, but you then need to try to test your hypotheses to see if they hold water.

    I know that's easier said than done, especially when you are so far away from where your ancestors lived. But I'm afraid that it just may not be possible to find the answers with the limited information that's available online.
     
  13. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    The National Archives have a record of Isaac Reach of 4 Umberstone Street, Commercial Road, a shoe maker. This is in the "Sun Fire Office" records. The record is dated 6 December 1815.

    Umberstone Street still exists and is about half a mile from the church of St George in the East.
     
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  14. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I have noticed an anomaly between the baptisms of Thomas and John and the other children. They were both baptised at in the Wesleyan Chapel in Thetford, Norfolk which is just over 12 miles from where they lived in Bury St Edmunds.

    The Isaac Reach in London lived in Umberstone Street in East London and the baptisms of the 4 children were in St George in the East. The anomaly which slightly worries me is that John Wesley built his first chapel in City Road, London (it is still there as "Wesley's Chapel") and this is only 1.5 miles from Umberstone Street. I would certainly query whether a previously keen Wesleyan Methodist in Suffolk would prefer to have his children baptised in an Anglican church when Wesley's own church was just up the road. It may be so but it makes me wonder.
     
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  15. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    The baptisms of the 6 sons named above were all baptised in Thetford, Norfolk.

    There is/was another son, who I haven't found a baptism for. He was named Isaac and at the age of 1 year he was buried 5 Oct. 1795 in Bury St. Edmunds St. James.

    A daughter named Martha was born about 1800 but I cannot find her baptism. I have Martha after 1851 as well as her marriage to Thomas Jones 12 Jan. 1826 in B.S.E. St. Mary.

    I am having a lot of difficulty finding 5 of the 6 sons as well as Martha [the widow ???] in 1841. The one found was John.

    In 1851 the 2 sons - Thomas and John - were both married and living in B.S.E. Thomas was in St. Mary and John was in St. James. Their mother - Martha - was a widow on Parochial Relief and living in an Alms House.

    Martha - the mother - died in 1857
     
  16. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Sorry for misreading your post Colin.
     
  17. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    What did you mis-read in my post?

    A cousin who is assisting me is convinced our Isaac died in St. George in the East - but is not convinced about the baptisms of Mary and Hannah - even though the mother of Isaac - the head - was named Mary.
     
  18. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I had the baptism of the 4 other sons in London! It's Mary and Hannah who may have anomalous baptisms.
     
  19. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    OK - no problem.

    Another wild thought on my part - could Martha if not of the same beliefs as Isaac baptised her daughters Anglican when visiting Isaac - and that he forbade her to baptise the last 4 sons until he returned from Middlesex and thyat is why their daughter - Martha - was not baptised?

    Note the time between births and baptisms of James & Samuel
     
  20. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Martha was baptised 21 December 1800 at the Wesleyan Chapel in Thetford. Parish of abode: "St Maries, Bury St Edmunds". She was born 5 September 1800. [TNA RG4/Piece 1969 / Folio 9 - non-conformist registers)
     
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