Brick wall {do not read on if you don't want a headache}

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by Allison, Oct 15, 2016.

  1. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    I have been quite a few years trying to find my great, great grandparents who from 1871 to 1911 lived in Glamorgan, South Wales. I can not find them before 1871 apart from the birth of their daughter Mary Ann 1867 Watlington, Henley District.
    Thomas Chapman born 1841 Willesden Middlesex and Elizabeth Harvey born 1839 Bethnal Green Middlesex. Though when Elizabeth died in 1910 Pontypridd Thomas says that she was born in 1837.
    There is a marriage for Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey in 1864 Stepney address
    is for Rutland street looking at census there is John Chapman born Tonbridge.Earlier census sees John with brother Thomas in Tonbridge Kent.That Thomas and Elizabeth is in later census as a railway station master.
    The Elizabeth Harvey born 1837/1839 BG is still living with parents in later census.
    Only Thomas Chapman born 1841 Willesden is Thomas b 1840 with father John born Lingfield. This Thomas is also in Willesden in later census.
    Any ideas would be gladly received.
    Allison
     
  2. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I haven't looked into censuses for this family, other than 1871 in Llantrisant, but first I thought I'd check out a few other things.

    First, I've found the baptism entry for Mary Anne Chapman in Watlington in 1867, which gives the residence as Northend. Do you have the birth certificate, and does this confirm the parents' names, and that Elizabeth's maiden name was Harvey?

    Second, I found the marriage of Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey in Stepney, but it was in 1868, not 1864. If this is the same couple, then it might be that they were sent away (or Elizabeth was, at any rate) to have the baby because they weren't married. I'm sure many people in Stepney wouldn't have bothered with this, but if Elizabeth had the opportunity to go somewhere more discreet, or healthier, maybe she/they took it. And in a strange place, of course, they could probably more easily pass themselves off as married.

    Third, the marriage entry gives the couple's parents as George Chapman, carpenter, and John Harvey, cutter. At this point I'd be aiming to look for them in censuses, and to try and work out how (or whether) this George is connected to the Chapmans you've found already. If I get chance I may manage a bit more on this later, but hopefully others will have a go too.
     
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  3. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Thank you Arthur.
    Elizabeth Harvey is confirmed as the parents on two birth certs. Mary Ann and Alice Chapman.
    Thomas and Elizabeth had 8 children according to 1911 census. I have found Mary Ann, Thomas, Henry, Amelia, Florence and Alice Chapman.
    1871 Llantrisant
    1881 Llandaff
    1891 Canton
    1901 Cymer, Porth, Pontypridd District
    1911 Cymer, Porth, Pontypridd District

    Mary Ann Chapman died in 1875 as did Amelia Glyntaf, Pontypridd. The family were living in Treforest [board school records]
    Florence Chapman is my great grandmother she married James Chapman his Chapman family came from Gurney Slade, Somerset.
     
  4. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Because of the address in Rutland street I think that the Thomas Chapman in the 1868 marriage is John Chapman's brother both born Southborough Kent. 1881 census Thomas and family living at railway station Wadhurst, Kent
     
  5. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, though, that's not consistent with the census entries giving Thomas as born Willesden. Might they have been cousins rather than brothers? Or do these John and Thomas have a father George?

    Meanwhile, I haven't got anywhere with George, but I have done a bit of digging for the birth of Thomas in Willesden. His age at the marriage in 1868 suggests a birth in about 1840, and there's a registration in the Hendon district (which includes Willesden) in Mar qtr 1840 (ref. 3/167).

    Assuming the registration wasn't immediately after birth, there's a matching baptism at St Mary, Willesden on 15 Dec 1839 (born 21 Nov 1839) of Thomas son of John (a labourer) and Margaret Eliza Chapman.

    So what of George? Was "John" mumbled and misheard as "George"? Or was John simply known as George? Or was he a stepfather? There's still a discrepancy with the occupation - I did find a George who was a carpenter in the 1841 census, somewhere in west London (didn't note it down!), but not with a wife and children.

    There's quite a lot to look at here - maybe we need to look for John and Margaret Eliza in 1841 and 1851?
     
  6. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    OK, 1841 & 1851 censuses, both Willesden.

    1841: HO107/690/16 fo34 p14-15
    John (grocer) with Margaret (laundress), both "30", plus 5 children including Thomas, 2; also Elizabeth Chapman "70"? 78? - John's mother? Adults not born in county.

    1851: HO107/1700 fo388 p30 (actually you've already got this)
    John (grocer & general dealer), 44, born Lingfield, widower, plus 6 children including Thomas, 11. Children all born Willesden.

    Death of Margaret Eliza Chapman: Dec qtr 1846, Hendon, 3/171
    Buried St Mary, Willesden 27 Dec 1846, age 39

    I think I'll have to stop there, but see what you think.
     
  7. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Thank you very much for your help. This is what I think about the marriage.

    John and Thomas Chapman Rutland street have a deceased father George they come from Southborough Kent. This Thomas married Elizabeth Harvey 1868 Stepney]. Thomas and Elizabeth from the marriage are in Ticehurst, Wadhurst Sussex in 1881. They have one son named Lional HARVEY Chapman born 1879 Ticehurst the rest are girls the first one born in 1869. Elizabeth also states born Stepney.

    Thomas Chapman born 1839/1840 Hendon is married to an Elizabeth, I can't remember her surname but they are also still living in Willesden in later census reports, beer house keeper.
    My Thomas is very consistant in census 1871-1911 with his birth year 1841 and place of birth Willesden. But there is no other Thomas born in Willesden in 1841. Also in the 1911 census Thomas states that he was married for so many years which worked out to be 1864 and on Elizabeth's death in 1910 says that she was born 1837.
    I think it quite strange that I have been unable to find no sign of either Thomas and Elizabeth at all before 1871.
     
  8. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Hi Allison,

    I think this is your Harvey family on census, unfortunately in 1851 only initials were entered in place of first names, except for Jno (John), however Jno was a clothes cutter (as per marriage cert) and they were living in Rutland St.

    The 1871 is very difficult to read but I'm sure it's the same family, take a look and see what you think.

    1851. Mile End Old Town. HO107; Piece: 1552; Folio: 221; Page: 25;
    Jno Harvey 52, clothes cutter, Cranbourne Dorset
    S Harvey 50, Wiltshire
    C Harvey 18
    E Harvey 11
    A Harvey 8
    F Young 6

    And 1871, Mile End Old Town. RG10; Piece: 554; Folio: 146; Page: 17;

    Also in 1871 at 80, Rutland St (address on marriage cert)
    Caroline Harvey, 38, waistcoat maker, Middlesex
     
  9. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Same family 1861, but no Elizabeth, perhaps she was living independently
    Mile End Old Town, RG 9; Piece: 290; Folio: 95; Page: 2;
    Joseph Harvey 61, clothiers cutter, Cranbourne
    Lydia Harvey 49, Shoreditch
    Fred Chas Harvey 24, Shoreditch
    Emily Harvey 22,
    Albert Harvey 18, Bethnal Green
    Lydia Harvey 16, Stepney
    Jos Jno Harvey 11, Stepney
     
  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Just noticed, the 1861 has head of house listed as Joseph!!!!

    However, as his son is listed as Jos Jno I wonder if John was also Joseph John.
     
  11. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    It is becoming more confusing as .................
    Baptisms Cranborne
    John son of John and Elizabeth Harvey, born July 12th 1798, christened Feb 9th 1800
    Joseph son of John and Elizabeth Harvey, born Jan 13th 1800, christened Feb 9th 1800
     
  12. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    1841, Rutland St, Mile End Old Town. : HO107; Piece: 712; Book: 5; Folio: 13; Page: 18;
    John Harvey 40, tailor, not born in county
    Ann Harvey 40, not born in county
    Caroline Harvey 8, London
    Elizabeth Harvey 1, London
     
  13. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Comparing the 1851 and 1841 it is making more sense

    1851. Mile End Old Town. HO107; Piece: 1552; Folio: 221; Page: 25;
    Jno Harvey 52, clothes cutter, Cranbourne Dorset
    S Harvey 50, Wiltshire
    C Harvey 18
    E Harvey 11
    A Harvey 8
    F Young 6

    1841, Rutland St, Mile End Old Town. : HO107; Piece: 712; Book: 5; Folio: 13; Page: 18;
    John Harvey 40, tailor, not born in county
    Ann Harvey 40, not born in county
    Caroline Harvey 8, London
    Elizabeth Harvey 1, London

    Also in 1871 at 80, Rutland St (address on marriage cert)
    Caroline Harvey, 38, waistcoat maker, Middlesex


     
  14. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    So, did Ann die between 1841 and 1851 and John remarry??

    I'll take a look to see if there's a likely second marriage
     
  15. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    I cannot see a likely marriage, I therefore wonder if Joseph on the above records is John's brother. The initial 'S' for John's wife on thee 1851 census could have been misread, after all the enumerator wasn't very precise, was he ;)
     
  16. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Name: Caroline Harvey
    Record Type: Baptism
    Baptism Date: 13 Jan 1833
    Father's name: John Harvey CLOTH CUTTER
    Mother's name: Ann Harvey
    Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington Holy Trinity
    Borough: Islington

    Name: Elizabeth Harvey
    Record Type: Baptism
    Baptism Date: 17 Nov 1839
    Father's name: John Harvey, TAILORS CUTTER
    Mother's name: Ann Harvey
    Parish or Poor Law Union: Whitechapel St Mary
    Borough: Tower Hamlets
     
  17. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    A Harvey age 8 in 1851

    Name: Arthur Harvey, abode: Old Rutland St.
    Record Type: Baptism
    Baptism Date: 14 Aug 1842
    Father's name: John Harvey, CLOTH CUTTER
    Mother's name: Ann Harvey
    Parish or Poor Law Union: Whitechapel St Mary
    Borough: Tower Hamlets
     
  18. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    John Harvey's wife Ann is Ann Pope. If I remember correctly John Harvey died and Ann remarried.
    Please can anyone have a look into the Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Chapman who are living in Wadhurst, Ticehurst, Sussex in 1881 census as I think that this couple are the couple Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey who married in 1868 not mine just the same names.
     
  19. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    They're at the Railway Station, and Thomas is the Station Master. Both are aged 41, Thomas born in Southborough, and Elizabeth in Stepney. There are 6 children aged from 12 to 1, all born in Kent or Sussex.

    Looking back through the 1841, 1851 & 1861 censuses, there's a Thomas Chapman in Southborough, born c1840, with mother Eliza, and a younger brother John. In 1841 there's also George, a carpenter - status etc not given because it isn't in 1841, but he looks like Eliza's husband and Thomas's father.

    I have to agree with you - this does look like the Thomas who married in Stepney in 1868. So did your couple ever formally marry? Might one of them have used another name?
     
  20. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    I too agree arthuruk. I also have considered either one of them using a different name at marriage OR they never got around to marrying. That said, I haven't found on 1841, 51, 61 census a Thomas Chapman born circa 1840 Willesden (other than the beer house keeper who is accounted for)
     

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