Caius College Cambridge

Discussion in 'Education' started by MollyMay, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Looking to try and connect the generations of my Reeder family, I found on Anc. Cambridge University Alumini for a Robert Reeder s/o Thomas (mercer) entering Caius college 18/5/1680, which fits nicely with 'my' Robert s/o Thomas bap 6/8/1662 in Wells Norfolk.
    So far so good, but can someone help with the following?
    Matric. 1680; Scholar, 1680-5; B.A. 1683-4. Ord. deacon (Norwich) Dec. 1684. (Venn, I. 464.)
    As I read it:- he studied 1680-5 and gained a BA.
    Ordained deacon Dec 1684

    Now in the parish of Whissonsett Norfolk 1690's is a curate, Robert Reeder (who submitted the Archdeacon's Transcripts).

    How can I find out a) more info and b) if they are one and the same?

    Also in the PR's for Whissonsett are two children baptised to Robert Reeder by his wife Sarah - Thomas 4/2/1689 and Robert 2/1/1690 - if these are the children of 'curate Robert' I cannot find a marriage to Sarah, this being my original quest.

    This is the first learned ancestor I have found, and sadly his father's wealth and standing had disappeared long before 1865 when15 year old Hannah Reeder d/o of a blacksmith (my g.grandma) married in London.
     
  2. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Your logic seems OK to me, but I've looked at a couple of other sources and come up with more questions than answers.

    The Clergy Database - www.
    theclergydatabase.org.uk - is one of the best places to look for details of clergy. However, I can't see a Robert Reeder in Whissonsett by browsing on either the name or the place, which surprised me as I've found in the past that the Oxford and Cambridge Alumni records are among the sources they use.

    However, they do have a record of a Robert Reeder, BA, ordained priest on 8 Mar 1691 at Buckden, Hunts (by the Bishop of Lincoln), which shows his eventual entitlement as "Curate, Wissingser". I can't find a place named Wissinger, so I suspect it may mean Whissingsett. The source for this isn't explicitly mentioned, but I think it might be the Bishop of Lincoln's papers.

    If these two are the same person, it suggests he remained a deacon for 7 years before being ordained priest, which is quite unusual. There might be more information in the Bishop of Lincoln's records, which should be at Lincolnshire Archives.

    The other source I looked at was Norfolk Archives and their online catalogue (NORCAT). This includes ordination papers (Ref: DN/ORD), but unfortunately only after 1713. However, it might be worth asking them if there's anything earlier which isn't in the online catalogue.
     
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  3. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thank you ArthurK, I will follow up the leads you have given me - I am breaking new grounds with this one.:)
     
  4. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Familysearch has the marriage of a Robert Reeder to Sarah Bezelem ,St James in Dukes Place London 21 Jul. 1683, Grooms Father as Robert Reader & Hester Hott ((other).
    Perhaps married on the way home to Norfolk?
     
  5. Ken_R

    Ken_R Well-Known Member

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    A displaced 'Brummie' now in Worcestershire
    Another place to search is the Clergy of the Church of England Database, http://ccedb.cch.kcl.ac.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp which suggests that it is the same person. Search on CCEd Record ID 62209

    (Can't see any Commercial links).
     
  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Can I ask where on FS you found this? I found an entry on FS which gave only the date and church, so I checked on Anc. and found the orginal image which just gives:-
    Robert Reeder Br Sarah Bezelem wd Robert Butcher ffr (sponsor?).
    So I just noted it as a possible, the name of the father elevates it above possible!
     
  7. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thank You Ken, it confirms what we found.
     
  8. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    That is a very useful link Ken, thanks.
    Would you like post a new thread including the link on our
    Handy Web Sites forum.
    I am sure it will be beneficial to others researching Clergy Ancestors.
     
  9. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    (This is actually the Clergy Database site that I mentioned yesterday, but the front end and the database itself have different addresses.)

    Anyway, I've just tried to follow this up with the search you suggested, but it's telling me that 62209 isn't a valid record number. Can you offer anything else that will help me find this record?

    The one I found yesterday was 101477. Intriguingly, there's also a Thomas Reader of King's College, Cambridge, who was ordained deacon in Buckden in 1686. His ID is 101463.
     
  10. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    MollyMay, did you see that 'Robert Reeder Clerk Curat of this Parish' was buried at Whissonsett, on 26 September 1691?

    https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12423-67623-24?cc=1416598&wc=MMVP-HGW:n451838298

    Also on the previous image, there is a marriage of a Henry Young(er?) and Margaret Reeder, both of Wells, 14 May 1689. I wonder if they chose to marry at Whissonsett because Margaret was a relation of Robert Reeder? That might fit with Robert being the one you've found in Wells.

    P.S. Aha! Looks like the Wells connection may be good. The 'Biographical History of Gonville and Caius College 1349-1895' (on Google Books) has this interesting entry:

    'Reeder, Robert: son of Thomas Reeder, mercer, of Wells, Norf. Born there. Schools, Warham, two years, under Mr Rice; Burnham Thorpe, a year and half, under Mr Tubbin; East Basham, one year, under the same Mr Rice; and Wells, six months, under Mr Butler. Admitted sizar, May 18, 1680. Tutor, Mr Lightwine.'​

    books.google.co.uk/books?id=3e48AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA464
     
  11. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Henry's surname could be Young(e)s: I see that FamilySearch has some baptisms and burials for children of Henry & Margret/Margreat Younges (spelled variously) at Wells, from the 1690s onwards.
     
  12. Ken_R

    Ken_R Well-Known Member

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    A displaced 'Brummie' now in Worcestershire
    My mistake. It seems the Ref I gave was for an entry, as opposed to the person. (Strange way to organise the system). The person I found was indeed 101477.
     
  13. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thanks Little Mouse,

    How on earth did I miss the burial of Robert the curate? I have been trawling those parish records for days now. Thank you. So if he was ordained on 8/3/1691, he never got to minister his own parish?
    Anc. had the same details of the Caius College, which was how I knew he was the son of Thomas (Mercer) of Wells. Margaret bap 19/12/1664 was also a daughter of Thomas (9 children in all).
    My problem is linking to Robert (the curate).
    So far I have been working backwards and my last definite is
    Theophilus Reeder bap 6/8/1722 s/o Robert - d1777 in Wells (he married Elizabeth Hardy [1724-78] 24/11/1748 in Wells).
    There is a marriage of a Robert Reeder to Elizabeth Gleade in 1713 in Wells which looks likely to be Theophilus's father (3 older children bap. 1714, 1717, 1719) and it is this Robert's parentage I have been seeking. (I had some help several years back from the chap who was transcribing the Wells registers for Freereg. and this was his conclusion too), but another Reeder decendant has Robert b1662 as the husband of Elizabeth Gleade, now you have proved what I suspected, he wasn't, as we now know he died in 1691.
    So I now need to 'prove' that Robert son of Robert and Sarah bap 2/1/1690 in Whissonsett, is the son of Robert the curate as he could then be the Robert who marries in 1713 and if he is not I have to try and find who is the father of the Robert who married Elizabeth Gleade?
    Sorry this is so long winded!
     
  14. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=+givenname:Robert~ +surname:Reeder~ +record_country:England +marriage_year:1680-1690~ +spouse_givenname:sarah~ +record_type:(1)
    That's a huge address, it worked again for me but probably won't for you, I've found such long titles usually don't.
    ..I keyed in Robert Reeder, England, marriage, 1680-1690, spouse, SARAH

    without checking back to see if you have these, I'll add:
    Thomas Reeder son of Robert & Sarah christened 4th Feb. 1688 Whissonett Norfolk. +
    Robert Reeder, son of Robert & Sarah christened 6 jan. 1690 Whissonett Norfolk.
     
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  15. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Yes the link worked - thank you.
    Yes I do have those baps - I am hoping to find evidence that Robert b1690 is the son of Robert the curate.
     
  16. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Just throwing a spanner in the works (sorry!):
    I've just realised that using Old Style dates, 26 September 1691 would be before 8 March 1691. The Clergy Database transcribers are instructed to copy what they see and not to try to convert dates, but if these dates refer to the same man, then presumably they must have been working from a transcript where dates had already been converted to New Style?

    If they weren't, then do we have to assume that there were actually two Robert Reeders? And was the second one ordained priest so that he could take the place of his father (or whatever other relation the one who died in 1691 might have been)?

    On the other hand, if the burial and ordination were for the same person, then
    Yes, he would have done, for about 6 months. In those days "curate" meant a clergyman having the cure of souls, ie a parish priest or incumbent. It's only more recently that it's meant a junior minister - officially an Assistant Curate.
     
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  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Arthur,
    No you have not thrown any spanners, I had thought there may have been a discrepancy with the dates, but as hard as I try I do not seem to be able to get my head around September being before March. Although I am pretty sure that the records are both for the same man.
    Thank you for your explanation that the title of Curate had a different meaning to what we know it as today, that is really helpful.
     
  18. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Oops, sorry, MollyMay, I got the wrong end of the stick! I didn't realise Alumni Cantab. said that Thomas the mercer was from Wells.

    I'm glad the burial was new though. I wonder what happened to Sarah and the children after her husband died? Might she have remarried? Or did she return to somewhere where she or Robert had family? Did Robert's parents outlive him, and if so did they make any provision in their wills for their grandchildren (if they left wills!)? They sound like the sort of people who might have owned property so perhaps there will be information hidden away in deeds or manorial records somewhere.

    The Robert Reeder in the CCEd database was, it says there, ordained by Thomas Barlow, Bishop of Lincoln. Now according to the Oxford Dictionary of
    National Biography, Thomas Barlow died at Buckden, Huntingdonshire on 8 October 1691. So the ordination was presumably before then.* (The Bishops of Lincoln had a residence at Buckden, which would explain why Robert Reeder and others were ordained there.)

    *Though we do not know if the original record says ordained by Thomas Barlow or ordained by the Bishop of Lincoln: if the latter, someone might have assumed that 8 March 1691 was a 'New Style' date and thus in Barlow's lifetime.

    The ordination record on CCEd refers to 'LA, Register XXXIV'. I would guess that LA stands for Lincolnshire Archives, but can't find a list of abbreviations and can't see this register in the Lincolnshire Archives section in the Reference > Source bibliography section on CCEd. If you can find out what this is, MollyMay, it might be worth checking. As Arthur has already suggested, I would seek advice from Lincolnshire Archives.
     
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  19. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thank you so much Huncamunca.
    I have some info on Thomas Reeder (Robert the curate's father) photocopied by another researcher, from the archive at Holkham Hall, plus a little about Thomas's father John. They were coppihold tennants of land in Wells. I have looked on the National Archives site to see if there is a will for either but there seems to be nothing - so something else to try and track down, perhaps at Norfolk RO - Thomas died 1708, so after Robert's death.
    I did think that perhaps Sarah returned to Wells after the death of Robert, as presumably she would have been living in a church property which she would have to vacate on her husband's death. If she did, it lends weight to my theory that the child Robert bap 1691 Whissonsett, was the one who married in Wells 1713 and the father of my Theophilus Reeder b1722 Wells.
    I will contact he Lincolnshire Archive and see if they can shed any light on the ecclesiastical conundrum.
     
  20. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Just an update.

    I obtained a copy of the will of Thomas Reeder (Robert the Curate's father) Mercer d1708. He describes himself as Yeoman and leaves everything to his wife Alice.
    Alice dies 1715 and her will is the clincher. She leaves the bulk of her estate to her grandson Thomas, son of her son Robert (the curate). She leaves her son Joseph £27 and a bed and her two daughters an equal share in her chest and trunk and all the cloth and linings (linen?). To her son John, her executor she leaves £2 for his trouble. To a grandaughter Alice she leaves 1 ginny (guinea?), and finally to my direct ancestor Robert, again she refers to him being the son of her son Robert, she leaves £10.
    So it appears 'my' Robert was not the favourite grandson perhaps he was not a particularly nice person - I also have a copy of his will where he leaves the princely sum of 1 shilling to each of the surviving children of his first marriage (where my line lies) and all the rest of his wealth to his second wife and the children of that marriage.

    So I am now content that I have answered the original question of whether Robert,the curate of Whissonset and husband of Sarah, was the father of Thomas and Robert.

    I am now looking for a will for Robert the curate.
     

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