Catherine Loveless and the blacksmith

Discussion in 'Dorset' started by mugwortismy cat, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    1865/6 was a tough year for Catherine, she buried Frederick Charles age 4 - 7/10/1865, Elison 11/2/1866 and then her father (I cannot find a burial for Joshua).
    When she married she must have been known, and her cirumstances known, by the officiating vicar (he buried her children), so why was her father's details left blank? A deliberate act or error?
    I see from the 1891 census she is in reciept of parish relief and in 1901 living at 2 Poor House, still with parochial relief. By 1911 she is living in three rooms of a house also occupied by David Loveless (age 53) and his wife Martha Ann.
    At least she outlived the rat that was Edmund/George.
    I do not see Ellen on the 1901 census, there is a possible marriage for her in 1907 Sept qtr Sturminster 5a 507 and I think from the 1911 census she marries Francis Eyres.
    Although all we have found is still circumstantial, I would lean toward Edmund and George Budden, Blacksmith being the one and the same person, we have found no evidence to show he is not.
    Have we done Catherine proud? Do we know more than she did? or is she looking down on us and laughing at our attempts to unravel her complicated life? One thing is for sure I bet she had no idea 100+ years on, strangers would be so enthralled with her life that they have spent many hours looking for her and trying to make sense of all the twists and turns she encountered desperately hoping that she did have some joy in her hard, sad life.
     
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  2. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    OK, assuming we are right and George and Edmund are the same. I have the following problems/questions in understanding what was going on ...

    Why the 5 year wait to get married?

    1. waiting for Joshua to die? -- because he disapproved? so what, they are old enough not to need his approval. Or because Catherine wanted to 'spare' him for whatever reasons I deamed up in my previous post? so why, the 4 illegitimate children hadn't shamed and hurt him already?

    2. making sure George/Edmund was really safe from discovery? why, then is he naming daughters Elison, its hardly a common name and is used in his real family

    Did Joshua or Catherine know of the previous marriage?

    1. Of course, I am sure that if Joshua knew that George/Edmund was already married he would have stood up in Church and said so

    2. I am fairly certain that if Catherine knew that George/Edmund was already married (and went ahead and married him anyway) she wouldn't have had their apparently "legitimate" children re-baptised once he'd gone back to the first wife
     
  3. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Oh MollyMay

    You answered and I was still typing.

    Since we cannot disprove the hypothesis, and since it fits our facts, and all the data without any cheating, yes, then the hypothesis that George and Edmund are the same still stands.

    The questions/issues in my previous post are just small niggles really, or anyway completely unanswerable. We have a broad picture of Catherine's life and I agree it does seem hard and sad. I hope (some of the time) that she really loved her George and he brought her some joy, after all they had 7 children together. Most of the time I just want to shake him!

    Why did Edmund return to Sarah? Yet another question that cannot be answered, and it must have been so soon after Ellen was born. Was he found out? did he just get tired of Catherine? Did he miss home? or the sea? .... Why did Sarah take him back?
     
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  4. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Also, maybe George told her he was waiting fo a divorce/annulment to go through to avoid marrying her for a time. I found several possible family connections in Poole but looking at how far they were from Leigh, I let be.
    One was the marriage of a Robert 'Cross' BUDDEN in 1865. Must belong to that 'Cross Lady'. Several female deaths in that area also just before 1866.
    Perhaps they are all connected.;)

    Okay I got lost in crossover replies again, think I didn't read farback enough to catch up, perhaps I should wake up properly, mayhap have breakfast first.:(
    At least i fixed my typos.
     
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  5. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    MollyMay

    In answer to your last question. I feel satisfied that I have done what I can for Catherine just in getting another person to feel involved enough, to understand and see what I did.

    I feel as though I can put her to rest now. I hope we have done her justice. i think she deserves it.
     
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  6. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Hi Wendy

    Yes I left that option out didn't I. I meant to include it in the excuses-of-George bit. Maybe he said Sarah was really ill and he was waiting for her to die.

    I think Poole and Leigh being so far apart was just what George/Edmund wanted ...

    Well, now I am more sure, and have someone else's backing I may just start adding all this info to my tree. And then, I'll work out the connection to 'the Cross Lady'.

    Wendy, have a good breakfast, catch up on Catherine's story, and let us know what you think. If I get enough people on side we can set up a Catherine Loveless Defence League ...
     
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  7. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    I'm caught up now thanks Christel, with one more entry to read on transportation & I'm away to brekky.
     
  8. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    Amazing, truly amazing and such an interesting tale.
    :)
     
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  9. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I just wanted to clarify a couple of points.

    Have just had another look at the Yetminster parish records, and there were 3 other daughters, Mary Ann, Jane and Anna, all born and died however before Catherine was born. So, that should say 'only surviving daughter'

    Of course, this is only true before 1842, then Leigh became a parish in it's own right.

    According to the Leigh parish register Joshua was buried on 9 Jan 1865; FreeBMD also have his death in Jan-Mar 1865, rather than 1866.

    David Loveless was the son of Catherine's brother Enos.

    If there are any other little mistakes/oversights etc in Catherine's story, blame me as her chronicler. And can I just thank everyone for getting involved and reading this story.

    I think we've run George/Edmund to ground now, and that makes me very happy.
     
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  10. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Sorry my error in Joshua's death (must learn to write more clearly).

    So glad to have been part of this enthralling thread. Mugwortismycat you really have done Catherine proud and just think how many have, and can in the future, read her story.:)
     
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  11. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I just had a thought.

    Edmund married Sarah in Jun 1/4 1859, less than 2 years later he'd run away to Leigh become George and met Catherine, 5 years after that he married Catherine. That's 7 years between marriages ...

    Now, I know he claims to be single in 1861; but could he have pretended that Sarah left him and he didn't know where she was, and invoked the 7-year abandonment rule ... thus 'allowing' him to marry Catherine?

    Also, do you think that Sarah's first child could be his -- they probably couldn't marry at that time that the child was born if Edmund was apprenticed?
     
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  12. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    That is a pretty sound thought, and as I was wrong with them marrying just after Joshua's death it seems a very likely scenario, which would satisfy the church.

    It is Catherine's connection with the church (her father and brother both having responsible posts within it) that intrigues me. The omission of her father's name from her marriage - it must have been known by the minister. The re-baptism of her children in the name of Loveless even though they continued to use the surname Budden. Hypothesis but perhaps when George's bigamy was discovered or he desserted her, Catherine was pressured into having the children re-baptised so as to qualify for parish relief.

    As for Sarah Rabbits first child, we have no way of knowing who the father was (shame the baptising minister did not give us a clue), I doubt the bc would name him either, the name John does not appear in her family nor Edmunds (from memory) so it could be that it was the name of the child's father.
     
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  13. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Firstly, there's no blame -- I was also wrong about the exact order of events (I could have double-checked as I did have the information in my files). 1865-1866 was still pretty traumatic for Catherine.

    It does seem to make sense that the vicar may have been convinced by Edmund/George's story. Perhaps Catherine and/or Joshua knew the truth.

    I feel that maybe Joshua's name was left off the marriage register at Catherine's request because she knew her father disapproved (for whatever reason, we can never know), I don't think her father's name could be written without her giving it even if it was known

    She had moved to Yetminster and Joshua remained in Leigh -- and Leigh had been a parish for more than 20 years (rather than a chapelry of Yetminster), so there would have been different vicars (I know I am probably clutching at straws here) -- so maybe she wasn't as well known as we assume

    The minister who buried Joshua was George Thompson in Leigh
    Frederick & Elison were buried by the Vicar James(?) Southwick(?) in Yetminster
    George & Catherine were married by the Curate Geo. B Southwell in Yetminster

    I know Yetminster and Leigh are only 2.5-3 miles apart, but Yetminster is that much bigger maybe there was a degree of anonymity? Of course they would know her situation regarding her unwedded state and her illegitimate children, but would they have known Joshua?

    Now, that is a good thought, that hadn't occurred to me. Maybe there would be records somewhere ... and maybe that would explain the apparent 9 years before she reacts ... (I just thought it took her that long to realise that it wasn't simple abandonment)
     

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