Death/Burial of Catherine Cumming

Discussion in 'Lancashire' started by crazycatlady22, May 15, 2014.

  1. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering if anyone can help with this one. I have been trying to find a record of Catherine's death for years. She must have died some time between 1840 and 1841 because her last child, William Kirk Cumming was born 9th July 1840 Liverpool and Catherine's husband, George Cumming re-married on 16th August 1841 at St Nicholas, Liverpool.

    Both Catherine [nee Graham] and George Cumming came from Scotland and were migrating to Australia.

    I suppose that I should also mention that some Australian records say that Williams Mum was Margaret McHenry, but that is incorrect. Also some records state that George Cumming was born in Ireland.
     
  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Hi there,

    Is this the family in 1841:
    HO 107, schedule 828, piece 564, folio 49, page 20
    George, 30, Joiner, b Scotland
    Margaret, 25, b Scotland
    George 2, b Scotland
    William, 1, Y (to born in County)
    The 1841 census was taken on the night of 6th June, 2 months before this marriage date.

    So now, I am confused. :confused:
     
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  3. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know, the whole family is confusing. I have a copy of the 1841 Census and Margaret is recorded as Cumming, but I also have a copy of the Marriage Certificate which says that they were married 16th August 1841. Which is also very odd, because I am pretty sure that is the date their ship left Liverpool for Australia. [possibly they were living as a defacto couple]. I have also checked through my records. I had found the original record for George Cummings 1st marriage to Catherine Graham on the familysearch website. Guess what - it is no longer there. I cannot find it anywhere.

    It definitely says on the Marriage Certificate to Margaret McHenry that George Cumming is a Widower.

    I had also found the birth record for George Cumming, son of George Cumming and Catherine Graham on the familysearch website. Quess what, it isn't there anymore.

    Have they realized that the records were incorrect and removed them? If so, who was George's Mum? He was born well before George and Margaret got married.

    Hitting my head right now. I think I need another beer :eek:
     
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  4. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Do you have William's birth certificate?

    The birth of William Kirk Cummin was registered in the Liverpool district in the second quarter of 1840 (vol. 20, p.391 according to FreeBMD). That means his birth was registered in April, May or June, which would suggest he is a bit older than you thought.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  5. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't have a copy of the birth certificate. That is very unfortunate because I would be able to verify the information.

    I just had a thought ! Gosh, that hurt! George Cumming was a recorded as a Presbyterian on his immigration records to Australia. Possibly his records have been moved to non-conformist section on familysearch.

    Another odd thing is that on the immigration record it states that both George and Margaret can read and write, but on the Marriage record, Margaret has signed with an X.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
  6. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    March Quarter 1841 Liverpool. Death
    Freebdm
    Catherine Graham
    Vol 20 page 336
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  7. HildaW

    HildaW Well-Known Member

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    Hi crazycatlady22 I strongly suggest you buy that birth cert (I know it's not cheap but you really need it to prove his mother) because there are no Presbyterian records for Liverpool (also N Ireland) available online - I have looked for bapts of my grandfather and his siblings in Liverpool for years. They were not bapt in any of the CofE churches but there were a few Presbyterian churches in Liverpool and I guess they were bapt in one of them. It seems the Presbyterian churches, certainly in Liverpool and N Ireland, would not allow the LDS to film the registers and even today they "won't co-operate" when emailed or the various Presbyterian church websites state "cannot provide genealogy searches". Just saw Catherine's death info posted by Archie's Mum.
     
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  8. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Family Search
    Catherine Graham
    Buried 20 June 1841. Liverpool
    Born 1832, Scotland
    Father Thomas, mother Ann



    Sorry wrong one, this one is 9 years old
     
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  9. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    This one might fit a bit better. Family Search
    Catherine Graham
    Buried 14 Feb 1841, Liverpool
    Age 23
    Father Patrick, mother Catherine
    BO30604-9
    GS396382
     
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  10. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    This one is also more likely to go with the death registration that you found in post #6. :)

    Good finds and something to ponder. Also, in Scotland, married women could be recorded under their maiden name, so maybe that tradition was pulled through - especially as they were on their way from Scotland.
     
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  11. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    Wow. It is so good when another person gives a different perspective on a subject. I never for a moment thought to look for the record under Graham. Thank you to everyone who has helped. I will do a little bit more investigating now and see where it leads me. Thanks again.
     
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  12. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    I have been searching through my files and websites.
    The Birth Record that I found for George Marquis Cumming for 17 July 1839 Glasgow, Father George Marquis Cumming, Mother Catherine Graham was IGI 455360
    I have also found birth records for the above but the other dates are 28th July 1838 Glasgow and 17 July 1835 Glasgow.
    The Marriage record that I found for George Marquis Cumming to Catherine Graham on 4 November 1828 was from I.G.I. Batch Number A455358.

    I have tried searching these I.G.I. Batch numbers but keep getting a message that they do not exist. I know that these batch numbers are from L.D.S. members who have added their own information and cannot be guaranteed as accurate.

    So, now I think that I should start from scratch and ignore the marriage to Catherine Graham. I know that George Marquis Cumming was married to someone else when his son George Marquis Cumming was born. Now I just need to find who this mysterious woman was.

    The Catherine Graham that we looked at earlier isn't the right one because she is too young.
     
  13. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    I just double checked a record of another child supposedly born to George Marquis Cumming and Catherine Graham - Alexander Cumming born 19 December 1837, Scotland. He died an infant. There is not a record that he ever existed either.
     
  14. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    There is a birth of an Alexander Cumming in 1837 in Glasgow on Scotlandspeople - parents George Cumming and Catherine Graham; also a George Marquis Cumming in 1835, Catherine in 1830 and David in 1833. These children may or may not have died - not all deaths were recorded at this time in Scotland.

    I think (as already suggested) that you need to obtain William Kirk Cumming's birth certificate as a first step.

    Also - I noticed a Liverpool death of a Catherine Cummins (Mar Q 1838) that might be worth checking although a bit early.
     
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  15. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the extra information. I will make a note of it. I had also noticed the death of Catherine Cummins, but wasn't too sure about it. It looks like I will be spending some money to get Williams birth certificate.
     
  16. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Hello again

    I am following an idea but it may be a red herring...

    As we cannot find a death for Cathrine in Liverpool so far I wondered if she could have died in Scotland. However the only death for a Catherine with a suitable dob and with other surname Graham was in 1870. If that were her then she would have been alive in Scotland on censuses, without husband George.
    In 1841 there is a possible Catherine Cumming at 27 Montrose St , no other Cummings present. In 1851 she is still there, married but with no husband or children. I haven't been able to check 1861.

    So I wonder is it possible that George went off with Margaret? If so where are all the children? And is George Marquis Cumming the George b 1835 or a second George born later?

    This is all just a theory and would need proving or disproving !
     
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  17. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    I looked up the 1870 death on SP and that Catherine was married to name and occupation that might fit. I was sure I had typed in some more of the details but they have gone - oh dear ,sorry, I realise I had unintentionally given too much information, quite swept away in the chase. Apologies again Top Dog. So suggest you buy a few credits for SP and check it out crazycatlady.
     
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  18. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    George's headstone states he was born in Dublin Dec 14 1808.
    Also Margaret his wife born in Glasgow 1813.
    But I guess you already have this:)
     
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  19. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I have that. There is a lot of information on the family here in Australia. Especially in Toowoomba where most of them ended up staying. Most of the information that I have found so far in Australia about George Cumming [the younger]. born 1835 state that his Mum was Margaret McHenry. But as George was only a little boy when when his Mum died - Margaret would have been the only Mum that he knew.

    I have been able to go back another generation with Margaret McHenry, but she is not the Mum that I am looking for.
     
  20. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    There is another Catharine Cummins on Family Search that you could look at.
    England and Wales Non-Conformist Record Index RG4-8
    Catharine Cummins buried 2.8.1841
    RG4_4367
    I did enter Lancashire but record doesn't state where burial took place.
     

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