Elizabeth Carter, Headington, Oxon.

Discussion in 'Oxfordshire' started by vickym, Feb 14, 2015.

  1. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    1881, Great Milton.
    RG11; Piece: 1492; Folio: 41; Page: 20;

    Robert Tombs 60, carpenter
    Jane Tombs 32, wife.
    Fredrick J. Tombs 12, ag. lab.
    George Tombs 8
    Robert Tombs 5
    William T. Tombs 2

    There's a marriage in the Sept qrt 1873, Thame district for Robert Tombs, also indexed Jane Cudd.

    And a death for a Sarah Tombs, age 52, Dec qrt 1872, Thame,
     
  2. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    In 1891 Frederick isn't with Robert and Jane who are still in Great Milton
    RG12; Piece: 1160; Folio: 34; Page: 15;
    Robert Tombs 70
    Jane Som 46, wife
    George Cudd 18, son
    Robert Tombs 15, son
    William Tombs 13, son
    Annie Tombs 6, dau
    Amelia Tombs 6, dau

    Note, George entered as Cudd!
     
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  3. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    I've just re-visited the Biel tree on Ancestry to see if it has the same info I posted about Frederick Cudd and his mother, Jane. It does :). I don't like to look at online trees before searching myself, as if the tree is wrong it could lead me down a wrong path.

    Jane Cudd is living with her mother and grandmother in 1851, by 1861 her mother is married and Jane is with the couple.

    1851, Great Milton. HO107; Piece: 1726; Folio: 36; Page: 23
    Mary Cudd 60, head, widow, Gloucestershire
    Elizabeth Cudd 28, dau, unmarried, Gt Milton
    Jane Cudd 1, grandau, Gt. Milton

    1861, Wheatley.
    RG 9; Piece: 889; Folio: 27; Page: 48
    William Hawes 55, Bletchingdon
    Elizabeth Hawes 39, Gt/ Milton
    Jane Cudd 10, Gt Milton
    Tom Hawes 6, Wheatley
    William Hawes 1, Wheatley

    There's a marriage Sept qrt 1853, Thame, which fits.
    William Hawes, an Elizabeth Cudd is also indexed on the page
     
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  4. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Goodness, this is getting complicated! It seems to be obligatory for everyone in this story to change their surname.

    So it looks as if Frederick Cudd was the illegitimate son of Jane Cudd, who later married Robert Tombs (who may well have been Frederick's father, judging from the 1871 census). And Jane Cudd was probably illegitimate too, apparently the daughter of the Elizabeth Cudd who went on to marry William Hawes.

    Perhaps Frederick and Minnie were worried that (as both of them were Cudds from Great Milton) they shouldn't get married, or wouldn't be allowed to. That could explain why she used her mother's maiden name, Gomm, when she married.

    But from the Biel tree on Ancestry, which does look very well researched, they don't appear to be such close relations that their marriage would have been forbidden. I haven't worked out exactly how they were related: need to get out a pencil and paper and draw a tree . . .
     
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  5. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    I think I have it right: William CUDD 1775 was Frederick's grandfather and Minnie's great grandfather. That is according to the 'Biel' tree.
     
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  6. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    The above is wrong, in fact Minnie and Frederick share the same GREAT Grandfather.

    The relative in common is: William Cudd 1775; his son William 1811 is the father of Charles 1838 who is father of Minnie.

    William Cudd 1775 is father of Elizabeth 1824 who is mother of Jane 1845 who is mother of Frederick.

    However the relationship is more diluted than first seems as William Cudd 1775 was married twice, his children William 1811 and Elizabeth 1824 have different mothers. So not a very close relationship.
     
  7. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    This is most probable, Huncamunca.
     
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  8. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Just to add another twist to this already convoluted tale, it is reported in the Oxford University and City Herald of 10 March 1855 that

    William Hawes, aged 50, labourer, was charged with feloniously marrying Elizabeth Cudd, his lawful wife being then alive, at St. Thomas's, Oxford, on the 11th of July, 1853.​

    He was found guilty, but only sentenced to a week's imprisonment as a token punishment. Apparently his [first] wife had 'robbed and left him within two months after his marriage' and had been living with another man for the past 15 years.

    The judge seemed very sympathetic, outlining the 'the tedious and expensive process' involved in getting a divorce and saying 'it could hardly be expected that the poor old man who was standing at the bar should bring such an action.'

    There's an interesting little footnote to the trial, saying that the case had only been brought because William, with Elizabeth Cudd and child, had become chargeable to the parish.

    P.S. thank you Mealymoo for working out the relationship between Frederick & Minnie. :)
     
  9. vickym

    vickym Member

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    Hello everyone. Amazed am I!!!!! What revelations, life in Great Milton/Wheatley in the 19thC was far from dull.

    I can see I'll be busy over the next few days sifting and sorting everything into my family narrative.

    Just to add to the above, I am aware that Wm Hawes was had for bigamy as this was passed onto me by Christine Molson, BHX who was following a Daisy Cudd line. I understand that Wm Hawes's two children ,by Elizaberth Cudd, Thomas and William changed their name to Cudd after his conviction.

    William 1775 his 1st wife was Mary Harvey which included child William Cudd. She died 1819. Wm 1775 then married 2nd to Amelia Collins (1822) and this is Elizabeth's mother.

    I assume that Frederick Cudd's father was in all probability Robert Tombs who then when he married Jane Cudd she gave Frederick the Tomb surname.
    Frederick went overseas to Australia about 1891 working on Sheep Stations. At sometime he changed his name back to Cudd. His return to Great Milton to see his family then ended up marrying Minnie Maria Cudd/Gomm, in London.
    On my mother's birth certificate her mother is shown as formerly Gomm and father declared as Cudd.

    Well this has been a really informative thread. Thanks to everyone. Keep the thread going if anything more transpires

    Vicky
     
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  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Courtesy of Ancestry's 'Queensland, Australia, Passenger Lists, 1848-1912'
    Name: Frederick Cudd
    Age: 16
    Birth Year: abt 1870
    Place of Origin: Oxfordshire, England
    Ship Name: Scottish Hero
    Port of Departure: Plymouth, England
    Port of Arrival: Maryborough
    Arrival Date: 3 Aug 1886
     
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  11. vickym

    vickym Member

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    This thread is getting more amazing by the day, it is becoming a life story.
    I wonder how long Frederick was in Australia - I know he married Minnie Maria Cudd/Gomm 1st Quarter 1898 in London - presumably he went back to Great Milton first where Minnie Maria lived?
     
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  12. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Hi again Vicky

    I was at the Oxfordshire History Centre today and looked at some transcripts of the Wheatley and Great Milton parish registers while I was waiting for my documents to be fetched.

    1. Wheatley

    John Carter, 22, bachelor, painter, son of Joseph [Carter], painter, and
    Eliza Gomm, 20, spinster, dau. of Robert [Gomm], mason, were married on 26 July 1857. The bride, groom and witnesses (Joseph Carter and Sarah Levin(?)) all signed their names. John & Eliza were both presumably of the parish of Wheatley at the time of the marriage, for it does not say otherwise.

    Their marriage was in the parish church, but several beforehand were in a 'licensed schoolroom'. John & Eliza's may have been the first marriage to take place in the new church at Wheatley, which opened in 1857 according to the Victoria County History:

    http://www.
    british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol5/pp96-116#h3-0016

    Hoping to find a burial for John Carter before Eliza remarried, I checked an index to Wheatley burials covering 1813-1983. I couldn't see John there. There was a burial of a Jane Leah Carter, aged just 7 months, on 3 May 1858. She had been baptised at Wheatley on 1 December 1857: her parents are named there as John Carter (labourer) and Eliza. Though John's occupation is different from that on the marriage, I think this must be your John & Eliza: there don't seem to be any other Carters in Wheatley at that time.

    Perhaps John is buried wherever his family was from, if that wasn't Wheatley? Now that we know his age, occupation(s), and father's name & occupation, it may be easier to spot him on the 1851 census and so perhaps identify places to look for a burial.

    Banns were called at Wheatley on 13, 20 and 27 July 1862 for Charles Cudd of Great Milton, bachelor, and Eliza Carter, widow of Wheatley. A note in the transcript says 'married at Milton'.

    Details of that marriage and some other bits and bobs from the Great Milton parish register transcripts to follow a little later . . .
     
  13. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    2. Great Milton

    (again from transcripts, not the original registers; I only copied a few selected entries)

    Charles Cudd, full age, bachelor, of this parish, labourer, son of William [Cudd], labourer, married Elizabeth Carter, full age, widow, of Wheatley, dressmaker, daughter of Robert Gomm, mason, by banns on 29 July 1862. Elizabeth signed her name. Charles and the two witnesses (George Fisher and Sarah Gomm) made their marks.

    The baptism register also confirms what we'd concluded from the census: Minnie Maria Cudd, daughter of Charles (labourer) & Eliza, was baptised on 24 July 1876. I didn't look for siblings.

    Looking at Minnie's husband-to-be: Frederick James Cudd, son of Jane Cudd, single woman, was baptised on 9 May 1869, confirming what the 1871 census suggested about his parentage. I didn't do a systematic search for other Cudd baptisms but did notice that Jane Cudd had another illegitimate child, George, baptised on 2 February 1873, which would account for the 18 year old George Cudd in the 1891 census, presumably the same boy who appears as 8 year old George Tombs in 1881 (Mealymoo's posts #21 and #22).

    Jane Cudd married Robert Tombs a few months after her son George had been baptised:
    Robert Tombs, full age, widower, of this parish, carpenter, son of William, carpenter, married Jane Cudd, full age, spinster, of this parish, [register blank where father's details should be], on 6 September 1873. Witnesses Richard Claydon and Elizabeth Gurney. Groom and witnesses made their marks; the bride signed her name.

    The digitised Oxfordshire parish registers are available in the searchroom at the Oxfordshire History Centre, but they're not yet linked to name indexes, nor could I discover when they are likely to appear online, or where. (I didn't try very hard though: the staff are always so busy I don't like to pester them.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
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  14. vickym

    vickym Member

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    Hi
    Thanks for your two messages above. This is realy interesting and opening windows into my family history. From your replies, and the others on geneaology specialists, I am building a more complete history of the Cudds/Gomms/Tombs on my mother's side than on my father's side.
     
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