Help dating photograph

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by mugwortismy cat, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    True. 45th anniversary would put it in 1917, and the war is on; that was one of the reasons I felt 1912 was more likely -- but also if the young men are at war that could explain the relative scarcity of younger adults ... but I still keep wondering where all the children are.

    i'm going to email Jill and see if she knows anything more than she told me at the time which was "I think that the smaller man at the back, slightly to the right with a black moustache is Elijah Harper, who married Anna Dade. The lady sitting in front of him looks a bit like Anna, but seems a bit older than she should. Apparently they are all Dades". I don't know why she thinks Anna looks older 'than she should' as no date is mentioned -- or maybe it's just in comparison to Elijah?

    Christel
     
  2. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    The more I look I'm also leaning to a much later date. The man at the back in the coat. That looks like an army greatcoat which, then I think puts it at least 1914.

    Women started to wear a 'V' necked blouse from 1911, becoming very popular on blouses and jackets from about 1915. Apparently hairstyles became softer with a centre parting and some women cut their hair to be more practical. Clothing became more feminine to be attractive to men returning from the front.

    Later in the decade young boys started to wear a brand new fashion of stretch knitted jerseys and shorts above the knee. Maybe the lad took his jersey off for the photo?

    The absent children may have been evacuated.
     
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  3. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks Mutters

    Every time I look at this I get confused, I feel it could be anywhere between 1900 and 1919 -- sometimes I begin to wonder if someone just photoshopped lots of people together who roughly fit but not quite!

    They are in rural Norfolk (Saxlingham Nethergate), but I suppose quite close to Norwich, so the children may have been evacuated -- or there may be another photo somewhere just of the children
     
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  4. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    But! but! :) The photo example I gave has young ladies with their hair centrally parted. The young boy was definitely born 1908, therefore my pic was taken 1911/12. Oh ecky thump I just don't know anymore...........anytime between 1911/16 ;).
     
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  5. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    I don't know if this helps or hinders, but this photograph of my great grandparents was taken in 1912.
    Caleb and Milicent.jpg
     
  6. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    If it was the 45th anniversary that would be 1917. I still cannot figure the flowers, some look like dahlias and some like gerbera as well as the carnations.

    I wonder if there is anything in the local paper to commemorate the event?
     
  7. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    OK I have gone back to the original file and isolated elements that I feel may help; I don't think they are much larger than the file above but it's worth a try:

    another view.jpg Ok (1) two prosperous looking gentlemen, is there a clue in the lapels, collars, ties (2) ladies hairstyles (3) is this the man in the greatcoat Mutters, skulking in the back?

    dapper young man.jpg the dapper young man, shorts, interesting tie ...

    shoes.jpg this lady's hairdo is already in the first image, is there a clue in the shoes?

    and finally, the elegant young woman

    stylish young woman.jpg
     
  8. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    thanks Jan,

    It's a lovely photo. Nothing is helping me, I am becoming more and more confused as time goes on. I am relying on Mutters, and beginning to think Flook is right in 1917, but .... too many buts.

    The flowers ... interesting. Local Newspapers, good idea.
     
  9. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    The PhotoDetective site has lots of helpful pointers. In the 'Edwardian' section it has many examples of hairstyles. This 'Transitional Hairstyle' which was apparently in vogue 'from after 1911 to about 1915' looks rather like the style worn by the 'elegant young lady' in the photo:

    http://www.
    photodetective.co.uk/Ed-Transit.html
     
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  10. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    or even this one in the WW1 section?
    http://
    photodetective.co.uk/B4Bobbed.html
     
  11. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Oh yes, I missed those, sorry. :( So that's not much help with the date except to say it's looking more like after 1911 than earlier.

    I would definitely follow up Mutters' suggestion of local newspapers. I've often seen reports of wedding anniversary celebrations in the papers, sometimes with lists of who was there. If you're really lucky there may be a photo of the happy couple.

    It also may be worth checking with your cousin whether the original photo has any sign of a photographer's name and address. These can be helpful in narrowing down the possible dates of a photo.
     
  12. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Hmmm, the British Newspaper Archive's Norfolk papers don't appear to stretch into the 20th century yet ...
     
  13. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    Yes that's the man mugwort. It does look like a greatcoat.

    Well I am sure it is after 1911 (the hairstyles and the 'v' neck blouses) and I am not so sure but think it is before the end of WW1. So I'm going for 1917. :rolleyes:

    The dapper young man also has very interesting socks. They have some sort of pattern across the top. I've enlarged the photo as best I can but cannot make it out. He and the other young boys and the lady with the shoes are all wearing knitted socks/stockings. The war effort promoted knitting an awful lot, everyone was doing it. ;)

    I cannot find the ladies shoes on line to give them an exact date but that style has been worn for generations. The flappers wore them in the 1920s, my nan wore them in the 1950s. I wore similar as a child (black patent or white buckskin eek!), as did my children and they also wore them as teenagers, I think they were a 'really new fashion' called Dolly Rockers in the 1980s. ;)

    The elegant young woman I will leave with Flook, he knows far more about young women than I do. ;)
     
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  14. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Though they have over 6.9 million pages online now, there's a huge amount that isn't digitised yet. The small provincial newspapers are likely to be a long way down the list of priorities. You could try going to the newspaper library in Colindale instead.
     
  15. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you everyone for your thoughts, it is much appreciated.

    Hopefully I will hear back from my cousin in the next few days, and she may know something more than she did before, or I may be able to prevail upon her to contact her cousin who has the original.

    The probability is that it is either 1912 or 1917, and the balance of evidence does seem to point to 1917.
     
  16. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    Please let us know. The little old lady with her glasses on looks so pleased with herself, surrounded by people with lovely smiles.
    It is just such a nice photo and you are very lucky to have it. :)

    Thanks for this thread, it has been most enjoyable. Of course it will be on here for many years and may often be added to. Just because we are unsure now, it does not mean we will always be so. One day someone may join the forum and know for certain, where and when it was taken.
     
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  17. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    If this is not an anniversary, or even if it is, could it have been an early Mothering Sunday? perhaps the Family were all gathered together to honour a particular relative recently lost, they do look a little sombre, tho' that's typical of many early photographs.
     
  18. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I have heard back from Jill today.

    There is firm identification of our dapper young man in the shorts and stripey tie as Ernest Harper -- he was born in 1907. So if we were right with 1917 is he really 10? Jill herself thought the event was in 1922 (and the 50th wedding anniversary -- but it seems that noone actually knows ...) but then she wonders would Ernest still be in shorts at age 15?

    Herbert Dade (b 1891) is seated at the end of the front row, and the elegant young lady would be his wife Lilian Walker; they married Dec 1/4 of 1917. But are they married yet? or just engaged?

    As Jill is now as confused and as intrigued as I am (and you lot are too!) she is going to get in touch with her cousin and try to find out more.
     
  19. Mutters

    Mutters I am not bossy, I just have better ideas.

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    Ernest does look nearer to 15 in age than 10.
    I think I mentioned his socks before. They have a patterned band around the top. Could he have been in some sort of organisation, like Scouts or Boys Brigade and the shorts are part of his uniform?
     

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