Help deciphering Baptism entry

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by mugwortismy cat, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Christopher GREEN and Emma Anne CHURCHILL married in the June 1/4 of 1896.

    On 28 September they had baptised two children in Sydling St Nicholas; Alfred Green b. 18 Jan 1891 and Tom Green b. 30 Sep 1894, both noted as born out of wedlock.

    The minister (Henry R Joynt) has made the following annotation to each baptism record "Christopher Green attended in Church and admitted he was the father".

    Above the first child's baptism is written "CONDITIONAL BAPTISM". I am not sure if this is meant to apply to both baptisms. It is not something I have come across before, does anyone know the significance?
     
  2. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    From the Service Outline and Notes of the Church of England at http://www.
    churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/texts/initiation/interiminit/confirmationnotes.aspx

    8 Conditional Baptism
    If it is not certain whether a person has already been baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, then the usual service of baptism is used, but the form of words at the baptism shall be
    If you have not already been baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

    Ann
     
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  3. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    thanks Ann

    I suppose the vicar was in doubt due to the child's age, do you think?
     
  4. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I've really got no idea, it's certainly not something I've come across. Maybe someone else can tell us?

    Ann
     
  5. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    I have an ancestor who was conditionally baptised, albeit nearly 100 years before the example above.

    His first baptism was in 1797, soon after he was born. Then, his second - and conditional - baptism occurred in 1803 when he was baptised along with a pile of brothers and sisters on the same date. He was one of 10 children and was baptised on the same day as four of his siblings.

    I always wondered if circumstances at the time meant that one or other (or both) of his parents were not sure if the first one had happened, especially if there was sickness, death or other upheaval happening within the family.
     
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  6. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    In 1891 (RG12; Piece: 1656; Folio: 80; Page: 12) Christopher is Emma's lodger, she is widowed with several children. James aged 9 seems to be the last child she had with her husband Henry. I can find an Emma Churchill widow in 1890 having a child Frederick baptised (he doesn't seem to survive) but I don't see a baptism for 2-year old George -- whose second initial is G interestingly ...
     
  7. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    George Green Churchill bap 16/9/1888 Sydling - base born
    s/o Emma Churchill & reputed (?)* father Christopher Green

    *not sure if this is the word written
     
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  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    There is a marriage in 1896 of Christopher Green and on the same page is Emma Annie Churchill June qtr Dorchester 5a 741

    I wonder why it took them so long ;)

    3/6/1896 at Sydling St Nicholas, he a batchelor, she a widow.
     
  9. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you MollyMay

    I did have it in the database file but missed it!
     
  10. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I don't know! She was widowed in 1885 I believe. Unless he was married ... but it doesn't look like it!
     
  11. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    One (maybe) last question to do with the Sydling St Nicholas baptism register, I am now in my final checking stages (Hooray! ... but the checking seems to be taking longer than the original transcribing ... maybe because it's just a little bit boring :().

    There is one baptism in 1892 the minister is (I think) E W Watson, he describes himself as "Dis: Missioner"; I assume the dis- is for district rather than dissenting, which was my first thought but makes no sense in a CofE register o_O

    I am not at all clear on what a Missioner is, Google is not being my friend today (probably searching in a foolish manner ...), can anyone enlighten me?
     
  12. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Well, my immediate thought was like yours - as in Dissenter, rather than District.

    I am wondering if the Minister was a non-conformist Missioner (as in Missionary) and am pretty certain that I have seen the term Missioner written in census returns. According to one on-line dictionary, a Missioner is a person heading a parochial mission in a Christian country.

    Some of my ancestors - who were Baptists - are recorded in the Parish Register.
     
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  13. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    The 1891 Census has an Edward Wm Watson aged 30, Clerk in Holy Orders, as a boarder in Wootton Glanville (presumably Glanvilles Wootton on modern maps) - RG12/1656 fo158. He might be your man - and the description suggests C of E to me.

    My guess is that he was in some kind of ministry that wasn't tied down to a parish; it might be District Missioner, but I wonder if it could be Dio[cesan]?
     
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  14. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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  15. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Arthur

    Yes Wootton Glanville and Glanvilles Wootton are used interchangeably throughout most of the village's history, I think they finally settled on Glanville's Wootton in the 1980s. I prefer Wootton Glanville myself ;)

    Interesting question; I looked again and it may be Dio rather than Dis; since I only have the one example of his handwriting it is hard to be sure. I'll post a snip and maybe we can take a poll! (joke -- but it would be nice to get some other opinions)

    dio or dis.jpg
     
  16. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    You know what, I think ArthurK must be right. Google brought up lots of hits when I searched for Diocesan Missioner, and nothing much useful when I tried District Missioner ...

    So Well Done ArthurK! 8(:-); I am changing my transcription ;)
     
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  17. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Yes, could well be Dio[cesan] Missioner. Coo, well done Arthur, top marks!8(:-)
     
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  18. Ken_R

    Ken_R Well-Known Member

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    A displaced 'Brummie' now in Worcestershire
    I think I've found him in Crockford's 1932 page 1384, Edward William WATSON.

    Miss. of St. Andr. Sarum, 1888-1900

    'Sarum' being (apparently) the name for the Diocese of Salisbury.

    It looks like he finished up as an academic at Oxford.
     
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  19. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you Ken!

    I believe that Sydling St Nicholas is in the diocese of Salisbury! so it definitely looks like him.
     
  20. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    The only Blushing smiley I can see says Oops!, which isn't quite right. Anyway, thanks for the 8(:-)
     
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