If you thought the Turners were bad, meet the Hesps...

Discussion in 'General Family History Queries' started by Nelli, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Me again. Stop throwing wet sponges at me will you...

    I would be utterly grateful if you erstwhile lot would cast your een over this mess. I am unsure whether I have two people or a bigamist and before I put out for a birth certificate, what do you think of this? I am looking for Arthur's mother.

    Arthur Edward Hesp was born in 1861 in Bream, Gloucestershire. His GRO record gives the registration district as Monmouth and a mother's maiden name of Walker. His marriage certificate of 1883 lists a William Hesp, Solicitor as his father. Arthur was a plumber.

    In the 1881 census, we have an Arthur living in Warwickshire with his father William, listed as a solicitor, born in Bossall, Yorkshire, William's wife, Mary Ann and a younger son, Edgar Evelyn Hesp, born 1873, mother's maiden name of Holmes.

    The 1871 census reads much the same with no Edgar as he hasn't been born yet.

    Here come the problems.

    The 1861 census has William, still a solicitor but with a birth location of Howsham (there's a transcription error) - Howsham is 2 miles from Bossall. He's now living in Gloucestershire with a wife called Ellen Hesp and 3 children, William J (9), Henry H (8) and Charles F (6). There's also a 'visitor' William John Hesp, age 13.

    Dizzy yet.....it gets worse.

    In 1851, we have William, still a solicitor with a birth place of Flaxton (another transcription error - it's not Flapton), 3 miles from Bossall, living in Malton. William has a wife called Elizabeth Ann Hesp and three children, Sarah Ann Hesp Thompson (6), William John Hesp Thompson (4 - possibly the same as the 1861 visitor...), Mary Elizabeth Thompson (3).

    I can find a marriage record for a William and Elizabeth Ann Thompson in 1844. I can find a death record for an Elizabeth Ann Hesp in 1864. I can find a marriage record for William and Mary Ann Turner (it's that bally name again...) in 1871. I cannot find a marriage record for William and Ellen, Walker or otherwise.

    There is only one William Hesp born in Bossall in 1824 that I can find, so the likelihood of this being two people, born within a very small area of each other and the same name and profession are, I would think, fairly small. Is this the same person in all of these census records and if so, was he a bigamist or at least, did a Francois Mitterand.

    And which one of these women is Arthur's mother? I'm in the corner crying if anyone wants me
     
  2. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    In 1861 Elizabeth Ann Hesp is living with her sister Sarah Thompson with daughter Mary E Hesp
    address Welburn Bulmer, Malton
    RG09/3628/47/1
    So there is no way William Hesp can be married to Ellen as he claims on the 1861 census
     
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  3. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    He's got a side family, hasn't he? How very naughty but especially naughty for a solicitor.
     
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  4. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    It looks that way;)

    I have been trying to find the GRO registrations for the children listed in 1861
    William has a mmn Walker, Henry has a mmn Wales:eek:, I cannot find Charles
    I think the visitor John Hesp is his son with Elizabeth.

    Do you know if Mary Ann Turner was a widow when she married William Hesp?
     
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  5. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Perhaps she's his housekeeper. :cough:
     
  6. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    "just a friend".... ;)
     
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  7. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    I did wonder if she had been widowed as she was in her mid 30's and the surnames don't add up. Then again, nothing is adding up here :D
     
  8. burt

    burt Where there's a will there's a way!

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    In 1860 at Bream, there is Edward baptized to William Philip and Ellen,
    he a solicitor, and in 1861 Edwin Arthur son of William and Ellen again
    a solicitor.
     
  9. burt

    burt Where there's a will there's a way!

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    The only other Hesp Baptism in Gloucestershire is a Private one of
    Eleanor dau of William Percy Hesp, solicitor, and Ellen at Newland,
    Coleford. Both Edward and Eleanor are buried as infants.
     
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  10. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I fear the only way to sort this one out is to get the birth cert for Arthur Edward (although it looks like he was baptised Edwin Arthur) and see just what names Ellen has used on that. I have not found any likely candidate for her prior to her being with William Percy.

    I do wonder if this is Ellen's death, the age fits with the 1861 census
    upload_2021-3-30_15-52-3.png
     
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  11. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    The burial is on FMP - not any help really as it just says Newcastle as her abode :(
     
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  12. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    I love your Hesps!

    A few random thoughts.

    William seems to have been first registered as a solicitor in York in 1850.

    The births of Arthur's siblings William and Henry. I think it is possible they could have been registered as Walker with no mmn.

    The Henry Hesp with mmn Wales I think is the son of Matthew Hesp and Tabitha nee Wales.
    And the William with mmn Walker is I think the son of a different William Hesp who married Elizabeth Walker in 1850.

    There is a poss William Percy Walker no mmn York 1851
    A poss Henry Hargrave Walker 1853 York no mmn
    A Charles Frederick Walker 1854 York

    Charles Frederick's marriage is in lancs OPC in Chorlton. Occ solicitor's clerk, father William Hesp solicitor
     
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  13. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    William Percy Hesp junior's marriages are on FS.
    1871 Stalybridge and 1877 Manchester. The image of the 1877marriage has father William Hesp solicitor
     
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  14. Andromeda

    Andromeda Member

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    I agree that the Walker births are the children from 1861. Yorkshire BMD has the sub-districts as follows:

    WALKER William Percy 1851 Walmgate York
    WALKER Henry Hargreaves 1853 Skelton York
    WALKER Charles Frederick 1854 Skelton York

    In 1871 William & Charles are lodging at Drake Street, Chorlton upon Medlock (transcribed on FMP as Heep).

    It looks like William & Ellen also had a daughter born & died in 1862:
    HESP, ELEANOR mmn WALKER GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 30
    HESP, ELEANOR aged 0 GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 10

    I wonder if this is also their daughter - buried St Margaret, Wolstanton, on 10 May 1865. It would put them in the right location for the 1866 death to be Ellen.

    HESP, CECILIA JESSIE mmn WALKER GRO Reference: 1865 M Quarter in KINGS NORTON Volume 06C Page 453
    HESP, CECILIA JESSIE aged 0 GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in WOLSTANTON Volume 06B Page 49
     
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  15. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    The Walker births are interesting.
    Charles and Henry give POB Haxby in later censuses, which was just outside York. Looks as though William was born in central York.

    In 1851 there are a couple of possible Ellen Walkers, one a housemaid b Mirfield, in St John le Belfry York, but the most promising one is the one in York St Maurice , Lowther St which is in the Walmgate district. She is age 20, gentlewoman b Leeds and is head of household. With her is an older lady, Mary Ann Lang a mariner's wife. Perhaps there to assist with the birth? This Ellen may not be a gentlewoman as such of course.

    I wonder if the address on William Percy's birth cert would correspond with either of the Ellens on the 1851 census.
     
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  16. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    All of this fits. I wonder what happened to the children of the first marriage? I'm going for a dig
     
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  17. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Sarah Ann Thompson Hesp appears to have married a William Perkins in 1860
    William John Thompson Hesp was married in 1870
    Mary Elizabeth Hesp was living with her mother and her aunt in 1861 and was married in 1890 to Thomas Futty.
     
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  18. Nelli

    Nelli Well-Known Member

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    Well, I have the birth certificate and yes, Ellen Walker is listed as the mother of Arthur Edward Hesp. Now just to find her parents which is proving a trial as there were several births around Leeds in 1830/1831 that it could be.
     
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