James the First or James the Second

Discussion in 'Sussex' started by Blackmogs, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    Some of you might remember I found a Tree on Ancestry the other day related to Souters. I got moderately excited not expecting the tree owner to reply to me. He did, but once I got looking at his tree and realised it had in excess of 18,000 names on it, I started to wonder.

    Anyroad, I saw that it had my maternal Great Aunt on it and my G Grandmother and varicose others on that side and decided it was worth a better look. Especially since it purported to go back to the 1500s. I have just finished mapping it across to my tree and found a divergence at my 4x great grandfather James Souter (sometimes spelled Suter or Sowter) born 1750.

    James 1st was baptised on 25.11.1750, son of Richard Souter and Mary in a little place called Burpham, Sussex.

    James 2nd was baptised on 26.12.1753, son of William Sowter and Mary in a little place called Amberley.

    The online tree goes down the route of James 2nd, back for years and years, all action mostly occurring in Amberley.

    My lot were from Poling, James 1st having married Mary Humphrey had his children there and there is a huge Souter presence in and abouts. The online tree also has their James as marrying Mary Humphrey.

    There is a burial for a James Souter on 20.10.1824 at Leominster which gives his age as 50. the online tree has this same burial date for their James.

    My problem is, how on earth am I going to tell which James is mine? the only sources quoted in the online tree are, yep, other people's trees and some bits and bobs from England Select Births and Christenings.

    Unfortunately, Amberley, Poling and Burpham are pretty close. Amberley to Burpham is 8.4 miles and Poling to Burpham is 4. It would have been nice if one of the baptisms was the other end of Sussex.

    If you haven't lost the will to live with this tale, any suggestions about how I untangle it would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Does the name Richard crop up in the children of James 1st? - I would expect it to.
     
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  3. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Freereg has 2 sussex marriages for James Sowter and James Soutter
    Mary Humphrey to Sowter 8th July 1775 - St Andrew West Tarring
    Grooms parish Leominster by licence (witnesses also named)

    Ruth Collins to Soutter 5th June 1883 St Bartholomew Rogate
    both otp - by licence from the Ld Bishop of Chichester (witnesses named)
     
  4. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    That's the one I had, West Tarring.
     
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  5. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I wonder if the licences are still available and if they would help?
     
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  6. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    Just checking, nope. It looks as though James and Mary had lots of children in Poling (hundred)which is the parish of Lyminster. according to Familysearch the first baptism for that couple was called John in 1776 and the second one was William.
     
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  7. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    I will have a squizz at the Sussex FH site to see if they list them. Bonne suggestion :D
     
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  8. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Is there any evidence that the father’s of James the first and James the second (William and Richard) are related? Even if it’s not immediately obvious, they may be related a few generations back.
     
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  9. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    My task for tomorrow I think lol. I cannot find a marriage between the Richard and Mary but the tree has one between William and Mary Young but also William Souter and Rachel Young, need to look into that also. Maybe Rachel died and he married her sister or possibly in sussex at that time pigs were flying and roosting in trees. He also has Rachel and her mother in law dying on the same day. :eek:
     
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  10. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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    Don't you just have to love "name collectors" who stick someone on their tree just because there is a loose connection.
    They do not document any positive evidence and believe in their own research.
    I once found my Grandfather married to an entirely different wife and they put it down as though it was gospel.
    Now one thing I've always told by family is that we are all inter related in some way, after all you may have a 4xGreat uncle that married and had children who then married and had children so you can join these families together and expand your tree, but only if you have proof.
    And this is where it falls down, some people do not get any proof and just accept every detail as fact. Rant over.
     
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  11. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    Don't you just love these either ors. One of my lines followed the custom whereby Richard would name his eldest son Thomas, while Thomas would name his Richard. The families all lived in the same town for generations and tended to produce their first borns within weeks of each other, few having more than one son. A ggg grandfather is named Richard and I have no idea which Thomas is his father, or even if his father is named Thomas. :headbang:

    As for grandma, her line can be traced back for 5 generations.
     
  12. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Sussex marriages have only James Sowter married to Mary Humphrey, 8 July 1775, . Tarring. Difference in the transcription of record?
    These marriages pop up on c.d.

    Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
    Place: West Tarring, West Sussex, Date: 8 Jul 1775:
    Subject: James SOWTER, bach Lyminster
    Spouse: Mary HUMPHRY, sp otp (HUMPHREE) (lic)
    ..........
    edit: missed this one-
    Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
    Place: Amberley, West Sussex, Date: 18 Jun 1711:
    Subject: Rachel YOUNG, otp
    Spouse: William SOUTER
    ................
    Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
    Place: Amberley, West Sussex, Date: 11 Feb 1749/50:
    Subject: William SOWTER
    Spouse: Mary YOUNG
    ..........
    Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
    Place: Walberton, West Sussex, Date: 6 May 1756:
    Subject: Richard SUTER
    Spouse: Mary AYLING, (B)
    Extra Information: Witness wit:Wm.CHRISTMAS;Wm.MANN;
    ..............
    Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
    Place: Burpham, West Sussex, Date: 11 Aug 1767:
    Subject: Richard SOWTER
    Spouse: Elizabeth POLING, botp
    .................
     
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  13. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    Oooo Wedny, top bananas, I love the look of the last one and you might have resolved the William marrying two Youngs, I think the tree creeper has mixed up 2 generations looking at the dates. :eek:
     
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  14. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    Yikes! I wonder if they did it on purpose? What a bummocks.
     
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  15. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    Quick update my tree creeper has two William Sowter's both born in Amberley, one allegedly baptised on 19 December 1677 and the other on 29 March 1712. They both get buried in March 1764 one on the 1st and one on the 8th.:D:D that's bad luck lol.
     
  16. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Did you know Family Search have images of the Sussex PR's? If you search for an entry, when the result appears you can then click on the actual image. The entry for Richard Sowter and Elizabeth Poling can be found at
    Code:
    https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4Z2-YY?i=725
    The witnesses are James and Mary Armstrong.
     
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  17. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    And here they are
    upload_2019-2-7_11-28-10.png
     
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  18. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    that'll teach me to be a doubting Thomas.

    :eek::D:eek:
     
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  19. Blackmogs

    Blackmogs Moderator. General Dogs(cats)body. Staff Member

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    No I didn't know that, ta ever so.
     
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  20. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Yes, but with that tree I would be a doubting Thomas too :D
     
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