James William Baldwin (1812-abt 1849)

Discussion in 'General Family History Queries' started by George Cooke, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Dear friends at Genealogy Specialists! Is it really 6 months since I was last in communication with you all?!....Hope you are all thriving! Life in Vero Beach, Florida is going well, though the heat and humidity are high and we approach hurricane season with caution!!
    I have another challenge for you......if you are up for it!....hope so!
    I am going to England this week to look for 2 things.....
    1. To look for my Flude/ Bruin/ Bamford relations in Blaby, Leicestershire. No specific questions for now.....and
    2. To try to find out what happened to my 3x Great Grandfather, James William Baldwin (1812-abt 1849). He was a Coast Guard Officer when last heard of in 1848 and his wife a widow by 1851.....so I guess he died between those years....there is a death in Westminster, Jul-Sep, 1849 and a James Baldwin, Apr-Jun 1850 in Camberwell, but I am not sure if they are him......
    Anyway, here is what I know.....
    I believe he was born in Greenwich, SE London in about 1812 and married Elizabeth Brown (1816-1896) at St Luke's Church, Old Charlton, Kent just down the road from Greenwich, on June 29th, 1835. I believe his father may have been another James William Baldwin, and I assume would have been born in around 1785....but I don't really know. The 2 records that seem to be around, for the marriage, but that I have not seen, are :

    Ancestry.com. England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.

    Original data: England, Marriages, 1538–1973. Salt Lake City, Utah: FamilySearch, 2013.

    However, since I haven't seen the entry and I do not know if any other relations are shown.

    Their first son, James William Baldwin (another!!...and my 2x Gr Grandfather) , was born on Nov 25th, 1837 in Greenwich; father, James Baldwin's occupation given as "Seaman". Mother and informant, Elizabeth Mary Baldwin, formerly Brown, bottom of Park Street, Greenwich. At his 1st marriage in 1860, his father was given as James Baldwin, decd, Coast Guard. At his 2nd marriage in 1898, his father was James William Baldwin, Coast Guard.
    Between then and their next son, John's birth, they moved to Happisburgh (normally called Hasbro), Norfolk.
    Their 2nd son, John Baldwin, was born on April 15th, 1840 in Hasbro, Norfolk; father and informant, James Baldwin, occupation given as "Coast Guard Service". Mother's name as Elizabeth Baldwin, formerly Brown. At his marriage in 1864, his father is given as James Baldwin (decd), Coast Guard.
    The 1841 census for Happisburgh, Happing, Norfolk (District of Tunstead; Stalham sub district.)
    James Baldwin, 25, Coast Guard not born in County
    James Baldwin, 3, not born in County
    Elizabeth Baldwin, 25, not born in County
    John, 1, born in County

    Their third child, Mary Frances Baldwin was born on Jan 12th, 1842 at Hasbro, Norfolk, father's occupation "Coast Guard Service" and mother and informant, Elizabeth Baldwin, formerly Brown. At her marriage in 1863, her father was given as James William Baldwin, Officer Coast Guard Service.
    Between then and when their next child was born, they must have moved to Grimsby.
    Their fourth child, Thomas Baldwin, was born in Grimsby, Lincolnshire on Nov 19th, 1843. Father and informant given as James Baldwin, Coast Guard Officer and wife Elizabeth Baldwin, formerly Brown. His baptism was at St Mary & St James', Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire.
    Their fifth child was William Baldwin, born Oct 20th, 1845 in Grimsby, father and informant, James Baldwin, Coast Guard of Grimsby and mother as Elizabeth Baldwin, formerly Brown.
    Sometime between then and when their 6th child was born, they moved to Skegness, Spilsby, Lincolnshire.
    Their sixth and last child, Matthew Baldwin, was born in Skegness, Lincolnshire, on January 29th, 1848, father and informant given as James Baldwin, Coast Guard Officer and wife as Elizabeth Baldwin, formerly Brown. His Christening was on March 14, 1848 at Skegness, and parents given as James and Elizabeth Baldwin.
    I assume he died sometime between then and the 1851 census, which shows:
    Elizabeth Baldwin, Head, Widow, 35, Charwoman, born Greenwich, Kent
    Sarah Brown, Sister, 31, Charwoman, born Greenwich, Kent
    John Baldwin, Son, 10, Scholar, born Happisburgh, Norfolk.
    Thomas Baldwin, Son, 7, Scholar, born Grimsby, Lincolnshire
    William Baldwin, Son, 5, born Grimsby, Lincolnshire
    Matthew Baldwin, Son, 3, born Skegness, Lincolnshire

    In the 1861 census, which I think one of you helped me with some time ago, Elizabeth Baldwin, at 2 Cumberland Villas, Langton Road, Camberwell, as Head, Widow, 44, Housekeeper, with the children mostly as expected.

    I have tried to search the Coast Guard records and death records but found nothing. I saw that some cottages were built in Skegness around the time they were there, and the Skegness town web site had some references to various events at the time, but nothing related to him.....

    Anyway, this is PLENTY to be going on with!! over to you experts! Any ideas/ thoughts ahead of my visit? I will be there on July 17th/ 18th....

    I much look forward to any thoughts you may have!
    All the best,
    George
     
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  2. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    I think you can eliminate the 1849 Westminster death, George, as that James William BALDWIN was only 12 years old. He is the only James William BALDWIN listed on the GRO Index between 1849 plus or minus two years. There is the death of a James BALDWIN registered in the Sep qtr 1850 at Westminster, aged 38 - perhaps a possibility. His burial record shows that he was buried 11 July and was resident at 4 Old Pye Street, St Margaret's, aged 38 - no details of his occupation unfortunately, but he does appear to be the only other likely candidate on the GRO Index.

    Now, I wonder could this be relevant. There is a British Merchant Seaman List record on FindmyPast dated 1845 for a James BALDWIN, Boatman, who was born 11 May 1812 at Footscray, Kent. I cannot give you full details because of their terms and conditions, but his place of residence in 1845 ties in with where his children Thomas & William were born, so perhaps worth further investigation on your part. Ancestry have the baptismal record at Footscray on 7 June 1812 of James son of Matthew & Jane BALDWIN. Two siblings for James - John baptised 17 June 1810 at North Cray, Kent & Mary baptised 1 January 1815 at St Paul's Cray, Kent. Perhaps relevant is a marriage at Camberwell St Giles on 13 October 1807 of a Matthew BALDWIN, widower, & Jane MAY, spinster, both of this parish - image available to view on Ancestry.

    As I say, it would need much more investigation on your part, but there are certain coincidences.

    Janet
     
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  3. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Wow, Janet,
    Thanks SO much.....that is very helpful indeed....I had come to the same conclusion about the James William Baldwin, aged 12, and may just get the other one in Westminster, just to be sure.....
    Thank you so much for the Footscray info.....very interesting.....I haven't subscribed to Findmypast for a couple of years, but will go back on and try to find the records you describe.....it does seem like there are an awful lot of coincidences....I especially look forward to seeing the record in the British Merchant Seaman records.....which may be the one that confirms that these Baldwins are indeed my ancestors!.....I will keep you al posted!
    Cheers! George
     
  4. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Dear Janet and other friends at Genealogy Specialists....
    Just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten you and have found out 2 quite important and interesting facts about James Baldwin (1812-1849).
    First, after being in Skegness in 1848 when his youngest son was born, the family moved to Johnshaven, on the East Coast of Scotland between Dundee and Aberdeen.....where, tragically, he took his own life.....a distant cousin of mine found the entry in a local newspaper. That being said, from what I received from you, Janet, I was able to locate James' father, Matthew Baldwin, who was a gardener and died in Camberwell in 1824. I have not yet been able to trace his mother, Jane May, or any of his other 4 siblings.....lots more work to do....I could post the article from the Johnshaven newspaper, but it doesn't make for fun reading, I'm afraid....
    Hope you are all thriving!
    Best, George
     
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  5. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Thanks for the update, George, and fantastic that we managed to find the correct James, but what a sad outcome. Just a little taster for your search re James's siblings:

    11 April 1858 at St Giles Camberwell, Thomas BALDWIN, full age, bachelor, Labourer, Cleveland Street, father Matthew BALDWIN, Gardener, & Mary EAST, spinster, Cleveland Street, father Joseph EAST, Farm Labourer. Both signed as did the witnesses William SEARLE & Ann BALDWIN. Burial at St Giles Camberwell on 27 January 1850 of Jane BALDWIN, Cleveland Street, aged 74. Both these records available to view on Ancestry. 1841 census of St Giles Camberwell (HO107/1052/3, folio 58, pages 27/28) shows Jane and children Thomas & Ann living at Bakers Yd, Camberwell.

    Enjoy!

    Janet
     
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  6. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Wow, Janet! You are a genius!!....That is SO helpful!....and gives me lots to look at over the weekend!....the distant cousin who I have just made contact with is from London.....I assume no issues with me suggesting that he ask to be included in your amazing web-site?!....
    To be honest, Janet, I had seen the Baldwin/ East marriage but had dismissed it assuming it was my 3x great grandfather, James William Baldwin (1812-1849)'s son.....I didn't think of him as being his brother!!....now it all makes sense!....I just need to find a christening record for Thomas Baldwin who looks like he was born in Down(?e), Kent.....I will be searching at the weekend!!
    Thanks for all your likes, btw!
    Best to you all....
    George
     
  7. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    No problem at all :D

    By the way, I have removed his name until such time that he consents. ;)
     
  8. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Great! Thanks, Jan....I assume he will send you a request!...
    Best to you all!
    George
     
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  9. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

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    Downe registers don't seem to be online. But if you go to the link below they will do a look up.

    Code:
    http://www.kent-opc.org/Parishes/Downe.html
     
  10. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Thanks so much, Sis! Very helpful....I will let you know how I get on!
    Best, George
     
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  11. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

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    You're welcome. Fingers crossed.
     
  12. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Glad to be of help. Sister Ann is unmarried and living in Camberwell in the 1851 census together with brother Thomas, but Ancestry have transcribed her as BARDWELL, so she may be a little more difficult for you to find (HO107/1580, folio 527, page 33), still living at Cleveland Street. It looks as if she is still living there in 1861 too, an unmarried Laundress.

    Looking at FreeReg website to see if I could find the baptism of Thomas, I came across a baptism at North Cray St James on 17 June 1810 for a John son of Matthew & Jane BALDWIN. Don't know if you already have this one, so thought I would include it in case not. I thought I had found the baptism of Thomas at Downe on FreeReg, but this Thomas baptised at St Mary Magdalene on 9 October 1817 is shown as the son of Philip & Mary BALDWIN, Labourer.

    Janet
     
  13. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Thanks so much, Janet....Yes, I did find Ann in the 1851 census.....and 1861 at 5, Cleveland Street....and then a burial record, Aged 48, from April 29, 1867 at Camberwell Old Cemetery in Southwark of George Street, Camberwell....there is a death record that seems to fit the bill....Q2 1867, Camberwell, Folio 1d Page 301 which I will get....also death and burial records for Thomas Baldwin, aged 55 from 1873....which I will also apply for.....I will also get Jane Baldwin, nee May, the mother's, death record form Jan 1859, aged 74 yrs.....
    Thanks for looking for Thomas' birth cert in Downe....I will let you know if I find anything out!...
    Thanks so much for all your help.....it is amazing how much I /we seem to have found out in the last week!!....
    Best to you all....
    George
     
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  14. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    No problem George - it has certainly been more productive than searching for the multitude of my various SMITH ancestors!! Do give us another update in time, as it is always interesting to find out how people get on in their searches, and if you do get stuck in any way, just post again.

    Best wishes

    Janet
     
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  15. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Thanks so much, Janet, and yes, I will keep you posted on my discoveries!.....actually, I would like your input on something......I am looking for descendants of James Baldwin (1812-1849)’s brother John born in 1810. There is a John Baldwin, born about 1810, who seems to have married a Susan Bynall (?spelling not clear) at St George’s Camberwell (close to where many of the family lived) on 12th February 1832…..and then seems to be a “ turner" in the 1851 census at Collingwood Street, Bethnal Green….and then again in 1881, saying he was born in Greenwich…..which is off course quite close to Foots Cray….their children’s names from the 1851 census seem to fit family traditions with John, James, Susan (mother’s name), Martha, Mary Ann (sister’s child’s name) and Caroline ……does anyone have any thoughts on how to substantiate this further? Unfortunately with a marriage in 1832, with neither witness ( Thomas Hewitt & Elizabeth Savill, perhaps?) apparently related, we don't know who the parents were...….I would love them to be more relations and descendants of Matthew and Jane, but I don't really want to put them all in until I am a bit more certain! Of course John's father was dead by then, but his mother and several siblings were alive, but were not witnesses.....Any thoughts?
    Best to you all....George
     
  16. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    There are two John BALDWIN's who married a Susan, both living in Middlesex, one of whom is a Coal Porter and the other a Turner. A clue to the John BALDWIN who is a Turner might be gleaned from the 1841 census where the family is living in Shoreditch (HO107/709/8, folio 61, pages 24/25) where on page 25 the last name of this BALDWIN family is that of a William BALDWIN aged 14, so is he John's son or a child of a relative? Looking on the GRO Index for the mother's maiden name of this family in Bethnal Green, it would appear to be JACKSON, so not the marriage you found in Camberwell. Then looking for the marriage of a John BALDWIN to Susan JACKSON brings up a marriage at Christ Church Spitalfields in 1834 - image available to view on Ancestry - for a John Joseph JACKSON to a Susan JACKSON. Have to go out now, so will pursue this line of research a bit later.

    Janet
     
  17. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Hi, Janet....did you mean John Joseph BALDWIN rather than JACKSON who married Susan JACKSON?.....If that is the case, I doubt whether this is the one as there is no reference to a middle name anywhere else.....so, I think it is much more likely to be the first one....but quite where the William BALDWIN, 14, comes from, I have no idea!!....he would have been born after Matthew died so would have to have been the son of one of the other sons of Matthew, in which case the dates dont really work! The mystery deepens!!
    Look forward to your thoughts!....
    Best, George
     
  18. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Yes, that will teach me to try to do things in a hurry! What I was trying to say is that the John BALDWIN born c1810 in Greenwich and whose profession is a Turner in the 1841-1881 census records, is not the John BALDWIN who married at Camberwell in 1832 because checking the GRO Index for the birth registration of daughter Caroline shows the mother's maiden name to be JACKSON. Therefore the John BALDWIN, Turner, is actually a John Joseph BALDWIN and, according to a Family Tree on Ancestry, he was born on the 3rd and baptised on 24 September 1810, parents James & Elizabeth BALDWIN nee WHITE.

    Now, let's see if I can find out anything more on the John BALDWIN born 1810 in Cray. John BALDWIN's marriage to Susan BYNALL in 1832 states that they were both of the parish of St George, Camberwell, which is a good start because your BALDWIN family lived in and around Camberwell. John BALDWIN, Coal Porter, is living St Saviour, Southwark, in the 1851 census (HO107/1558, folio 487, page 18) together with wife Susan and children James, John, Eliza & Ann. He states he is born in Camberwell. Looking for the birth registration of daughter Ann on the GRO, it states that her mother's maiden name is BYNOTH, as does son John's birth registration, so it is almost certain that this John & Susan BALDWIN are the ones who married in 1832 at Camberwell.

    More to follow.

    Janet
     
  19. George Cooke

    George Cooke Active Member

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    Dear Janet,
    That is BRILLIANT! Thanks so much.....I wasn't comfortable with the "turner" from Bethnal Green, but hadn't seen the alternative!....I don't quite know how you do it, but you have an incredible way of filtering info to isolate stuff to what you are looking for.....I think I need a lesson!!!...
    Will look at this in more detail this evening!
    All the best, and thanks again! George
     
  20. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    I cannot find John & Susan BALDWIN, Coal Porter, in the 1861 census but it looks as if Susan is a widow and living in the Church Street Almshouses of Christchurch, Southwark in the 1871 census and in the Burrell St Almshouses of Christchurch in the 1881 census. Her age seems to vary in each census as does her place of birth but the county is consistently shown as Hertfordshire. I think I may have found Susan BALDWIN in the 1841 census of Camberwell (HO107/1052/3, folio 37, page 26) living at Crown Street with children Charlotte aged 8, James aged 4 & John aged 2, but no sign of husband John. What I have found is a Criminal Record on Ancestry for a John BALDWIN at Southwark Police Court, aged 48, Coal Porter, received into custody 18 August 1858, committed on 24 August 1858 for "feloniously stealing six sacks of coal, the property of Frederick SMITH", tried on 20 September 1858 and found not guilty of larceny by a servant. So it looks as if this John BALDWIN is still alive in 1858. Several reports on this case in various newspapers, none of which give you much more information on John BALDWIN except that he was acquitted because he was only assisting the Carman who was actually delivering the sacks of coal. I am not having much luck in finding his death with any certainty at the moment, but there is a death registration at St Saviour Southwark in the December qtr 1863 of a John BALDWIN, aged 53, which is a possibility.

    Sister Ann BALDWIN appears on the National Probate Calendar - record viewable on Ancestry - she died 23 April 1867 and letters of Administration were granted to her brother Thomas BALDWIN of 48 George Street, Camberwell, Laundryman.

    I think on balance, John BALDWIN, Coal Porter, is more likely to be the son of Matthew & Jane BALDWIN, although proving it definitely is going to be problematical. It is a shame that Ann's entry on the National Probate Calendar looks to be only letters of Administration and not an actual Will as she may well have mentioned her nephews & nieces if it were.

    See what you think, anyway.

    Janet
     

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