John Pinder of Kilham . (1716-1797): where was his land?

Discussion in 'Yorkshire' started by Stephen Pinder, Apr 2, 2018.

  1. Stephen Pinder

    Stephen Pinder New Member

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    Greetings everyone. Pleased to be among such fine folks. This is my first post by the way (and it’s going to be long and detailed!)

    I would greatly appreciate any assistance that you could provide. I’ll get right to the point:

    I’m going to be able to spend a few days in early June in the Kilham, Beverly & the Brindlington area and I would like to stand on the land that my g-g-g-g-grandfather tilled back in 17’s . Yes, it’s going to be a tall order to find that out!
    Here is what I know and the points that I believe will help me narrow it down.

    John Pinder (sometimes spelt as “Pindar”)
    Not 100% sure of the birth, baptism date and place (the 29th July in Snaith, Yorkshire) but his time and place of death I have very strong confidence in.

    The Kilham Parish Registers 1754-1812 has the following entry:
    - John Pinder, yeoman and Farmer, died the 20th and buried February 22d 1797

    The information also dovetails with the probate I was able to purchase from the Bothwick institute.
    Below is a small passage:

    I give and devise unto my eldest son John Pinder his heirs ??? forever all that my tenement or dwellinghouse situated and being in Kilham aforsaid wherein I now live with the barn, stable yard and croft enclose and other ???? Belonging hereto except the new created tenement or dwelling house anointing which is herein after given to my son William Pinder

    A very important point mentioned in the will is that he mentions his son in law, Stephen Bennison, who married his daughter, Mary. This confirms that I am looking at the right John Pinder. Stephen Bennison and Mary Pinder go on to have a daughter, Elizabeth Bennison, who married a Stephen Coulson. They have a daughter called Mary Ann Coulson (1806-1886), who married a Stephen Pinder (1803-1882). Stephen Pinder is my g-g-grandfather. He is also the son of John Pinder mentioned in the above will.

    John Pinder Married 11 Dec.1748 in Kilham to Jane Beilby (1725-1804)
    Had three sons & 3 daughters;
    John (1749-1823) Named in will as an executor. Also named as the eldest son in the Will
    William (1752-1826) Named in will as an executor
    Robert (1758-1830)
    Mary (1760-1844) Married Stephen Bennison named in Will)
    Jane (1761-1796)
    Ann (1765-1766)


    Side note: I have been unable to find a Will for John Pinder (1749-1823)


    So the above information establishes that he was of Kilham, worked there as a farmer & yeoman, and died there. I strongly suspect he did not own the land, but rather was a tenant.


    The second piece of information that helps to narrow down where it might be, is information from the Treasure House online archives in Beverly. The Finding number is: DDX2003/8/12


    The description is called “Declaration of Matthew Lamplugh of Kilham, yeoman”

    “He declares that he is 82 years of age and has resided in Kilham all his life. He is well acquainted with the farmhouse and farm at Kilham containing 127 acres, recently agreed to be sold by Miss Newton to William Lamplugh, and occupied by George Hardy. The first owner he can remember was Foord Newton, then Isaac Newton, then William Newton who took the name Watson, and then his sister Jane Newton. Christopher Lamplugh was a cousin of my late father, was the first tenant he can remember, then John Pinder, then William Newton and then George Hardy, who has been the occupier for 35 years. Believes that Christopher Lamplugh was tenant of the farm at the time of the Kilham Inclosure.”

    Okay, to sum it up, the land (127 acres) was owned at one point by a Miss Jane Newton who had a tenant farmer at the time called John Pinder > No way of knowing if that refers to John Sr. or Jr at this point. She sold this land to a William Lamplugh in 1855.

    It's at this point I have hit the brick wall.

    Now, I have to believe there must be a record somewhere, as to a title to the land, tithes paid to the church, a map, something, that will narrow down the right plot of land? Short of going to Beverly and researching their records (which I might have to do), is there anything online that I could check?

    Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  2. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Hi Stephen, and welcome. :)

    There are some tithe records and maps at The Genealogist (commercial website), but there's very little available there for Kilham - just one farm, which isn't yours. There might possibly be more at Beverley, but I'd want to enquire before making a trip.

    I tried another approach with census returns, but with only limited results. George Hardy can be found in 1851 in West Street (HO107/2366 fo612 p3). Unfortunately the farm isn't named, but I wonder if it might be possible to look for a farm of the same size on West Street in later censuses, to see if it has a name. You could also possibly look for the neighbours from 1851, in case they're in the same house.

    Even though tithe maps may be missing, you can find some good large scale maps at the National Library of Scotland:
    Code:
    https://maps.nls.uk/os/6inch-england-and-wales/index.html
    The link mentions the 6 inch:1 mile series, but when you go to select a place, you can also pick 25 inch:1 mile and other scales. The larger scale ones include road names and at least some farm names - West Street is quite easy to find, but unfortunately there are a few farms on it....

    I also tried looking for George Hardy's death and will (found them - 1860), in case the probate index gave an exact address, but he'd moved away from Kilham when he died. However, you might find something similar on one or more of the Lamplughs, if only to eliminate one of their other farms from your search.

    Finally, it might be worth looking in old newspapers (British Newspaper Archive and FindMyPast) - some Yorkshire ones have quite a lot relating to the landowning classes and their properties.

    Let us know how you get on, and ask again if you need more ideas.

    Edited to add:
    Do check out the East Riding Archives website and all their links relating to maps and property. I've just remembered that they also house the East Riding Register of Deeds, which might have exactly what you're looking for - see leaflet at
    Code:
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/EasySiteWeb/GatewayLink.aspx?alId=98727
    linked to from this page:
    Code:
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/leisure/archives-family-and-local-history/browsing-our-archives/
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  3. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I’ve had a quick look in the newspapers but haven’t found anything as yet. I’ll keep looking.

    PS Welcome to Top Dog:)
     
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  4. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Hello and welcome, Stephen,

    According to the parish register record of John PINDAR's marriage to Jane BEILLY (available to view on FMP so cannot give you full details), he was a Carpenter. Now this could be a total red herring, but the only Apprenticeship record I can find online for a John PINDER/PINDER in about the correct timescale is one for a John son of John PINDER of Barmby Marsh dated 24 June 1737 to a David POCKLINGTON of Hemingbrough. Carpenter (available to view on Ancestry). Following on from this Apprenticeship record, there is a baptism (again available to view on FMP) of a John PINDAR in 1721 at Howden which fits in with the details given in the above Apprenticeship. It was a total red herring! Marriage in 1757 at Howden of John PINDAR, Carpenter, to Hannah CASS - so back to square one looking for John PINDAR of Kilham who is a Carpenter on his marriage record or a Yeoman & Farmer as he was described on his burial record. The earliest PINDER/PINDAR parish record I can find at Kilham on FMP is the burial of a Jonathan PINDER in 1742. I note that your John named a son Jonathan, so could this perhaps be a relative of your John - father, uncle or cousin perhaps??

    Perhaps worth your consideration is the marriage of a Jonathan PINDAR at Burton Agnes (which is pretty close to Kilham) in 1713 to an Elizabeth SHEPHERDSON and then a baptism in 1720 of a son Jonathan to this couple - could your ancestor have shortened his name to John to differentiate him from his father?? Baptisms of other children to this couple available to view on FMP. There is also a William PINDAR having children at Burton within the same timescale and they could well be brothers, William naming a son Jonathan & Jonathan naming a son William. Now this is interesting because there is a burial record at Burton Agnes on 16 January 1732/33 of a Jon: PINDAR belonging to the parish of Kilham! All these original records are available to view on FindmyPast if you can access their website.

    According to the baptismal record (on FMP) for the John PINDAR at Snaith, he was illegitimate of Heek?.

    Janet
     
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  5. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Probably Heck.
     
  6. Stephen Pinder

    Stephen Pinder New Member

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    Hello Arthur, and thank you for the quick reply.



    Regarding Maps: I had previously access the National Library of Scotland maps, but didn't see anything that might be helpful. As of yet, I have not found any alternative maps that might point me in the right direction.

    Regarding census information (and street names)

    I looked at 1851 census record (which mention street names, the 1841 doesn't). The problem is that's it fairly late in the game. John Pindar's son, John Pinder (B1749), dies in 1823, prior to any census records. His other son, William, which is mentioned as a Yeoman in his marriage ban records, dies in 1826. Again, no census records. Robert, his other son, born 1758, is noted as a Cordwainer (SOURCE: Kilham Parish Registers 1754-1812). And in 1823: Transcript of the entry of 'professions and trades' for KILHAM in Baines's Directory of 1823. He's dead by 1830 so that rules him out.


    Now if we move down to the next generation, the son's of John Pinder (1749-1823): to see if he still had tenant title on the land and passed it down to any of his 4 sons. The information is inconclusive.

    -John (1802-1842). Not much on him. I have him getting married to an Alice leadley in Little Driffield at the age of 18. He's dies in 1842. Somehow suspect he didn't inherit anything
    -Stephen (1803-1882), my great-great grandfather. He was in Bridlington in the 1841 census, and in 1851 census, he is listed as an agricultural laborer, but he resides on 50 Ings Lane, Bridlington. By 1852-53 he and his whole family immigrate to Canada.
    -William (1806-1879). has him also as an agricultural laborer, but his place of residence is 6 Thwig road, Wold Newton. He also eventually emmigrates to Canada as he is in the 1871 Cnd census.


    Your search for information re. George Hardy confirms some information I have as well, but with the same results. "1851 2366/612/3 George Hardy is a farmer of 150 acres – address West Street, Kilham"

    Regarding the Lamplugh's.

    I went to the extent of creating a family tree at Ancestry.ca to try to keep things organized.
    This family owned half of Kilham and surrounding areas at one time or other! Most of the census information points to addresses on Middle Street. William Lamplugh (1791-1858) is listed as a farmer in 1851 census, with 1,040 acres a 12 laborers. There are other Lamplugh's with varying numbers of acres and A.L.'s .


    Newspaper's.

    To be honest, this is not an avenue i have explored yet, in part because i do not know where to start. I no longer have a Find My Past account, but I do at Ancstry.ca Or are you talking outside these resources?


    Just notes your post edit: I'm on my way to the link provided. thanks.
     
  7. Stephen Pinder

    Stephen Pinder New Member

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    Just in, a reply from The Treasure House in Beverley.
    Unfortunately the bottom line is that they cannot find any information that will pinpoint the location of the plot of land. Going to have to look at different sources.

    "Dear Stephen

    Thank you for your enquiry.

    We hold a transcript of the Kilham enclosure award of 1773 which lists Foord Newton as being allotted five pieces of land of the following acreages.

    24 acres 16 perches
    21 acres 35 perches
    52 acres 3 roods 9 perches
    170 acres 2 roods 7 perches
    21 acres 3 roods 14 perches

    There are also two areas of land in the centre of the village on the enclosure plan, with the name Newton on but no acreages which are possibly areas of ancient enclosure not mentioned in the 1773 award.

    The only reference to the surname Lamplugh was for one piece of land with the following acreage to Jane Lamplugh

    7 acres 3 roods 10 perches

    I could find no apparent mention of a John Pinder or an 127 acre plot owned by a William Lamplugh.

    We do hold a copy of a tithe plan for 1844 but it appears to be for land owned by Beaumont Hotham in the occupation of James Hall, no other names are listed and it only covers part of Kilham.

    The Land Tax assessments for Kilham 1783, 1787-1798, 1800-30, 1832 refer to the Newtons as owning land and John Pinder occupying it at various points, the sum of assessment only changes once and then remains constant, showing it to be the same land.

    In 1783 John Pinder occupies land owned by the Reverend James Rudd for which the assessment sum is 9 shillings, the executors of Foord Newton have land occupied by Christopher Lamplough for which the assessment sum is 18 shillings.

    By 1787 Isaac Newton is the owner and John Pinder the occupier, with the assessment sum of 18 shillings. This stays the same in 1788. From 1789 through to 1801 Isaac Newton and John Pinder are listed with an assessment sum of £1.4s.7d.

    In 1802 the heirs of Isaac Newton and John are listed and from 1803-1816 Mrs Newton and John. From 1818-1820 Robert Newton is listed and John has disappeared. John reappears between 1822 and 1825.

    In 1821 and from 1826-1830 Robert Newton is listed with George Hardy as an occupier. The assessment rate has stayed at £1.4s.7d.

    Unfortunately this Land Tax does not list the acreages of the land being assessed. It appears to show father and sons occupation periods, but unfortunately we do not have a plan which identifies the plot.

    I hope this is of some help and interest.

    Kind regards
     
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  8. Stephen Pinder

    Stephen Pinder New Member

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    Points to note on the above:
    "From 1789 through to 1801 Isaac Newton and John Pinder are listed with an assessment sum of £1.4s.7d. " John Pinder (Sr) died in 1797, so this would be his son?

    Also:
    " From 1818-1820 Robert Newton is listed and John has disappeared. John reappears between 1822 and 1825.". But I have John Pinder(Jr) as dying in 1823?! Or is this John Newton?

    More questions than answers, again. Lol
     
  9. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty comprehensive reply from the East Riding, even though it doesn't really get you anywhere.

    I wonder if I didn't make myself clear on looking in the census, though. It wasn't to look for Pinders post-1851, but to see if the same farm/land/acreage could be identified in later years - ie something in West Street of the same size as shown in 1851 - when hopefully it might have a name attached to it. However, since the Lamplughs seem to have been farming more or less all the land round there, it's possible that the acreage was just added in to whatever else they had to produce a larger total.
     
  10. Stephen Pinder

    Stephen Pinder New Member

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    Boy, doubts are starting to seep in re. John Pindar.. but, then again, they shouldn't. I have seen a few references to a Jonathan Pindar, but had my doubts as to it being part of the same branch mainly because I have such strong confidence with the Probate of this John Pinder (https://1drv.ms/b/s!AifC60WL0cSMuXSDHqz8or6yH6_1) It just matches up so well with my family tree and the people that came after it. In the Probate it mentions Stephen Bennison (son in Law) , his son John, wife, Jane.. just too many good matches. Also, in the Parish Register of 1754-1812, he is mentioned as a yeoman. "John Pinder, yeoman and Farmer, died the 20th and buried February 22d 1797" But I will admit, he is listed as a carpenter in most documents. There is however, another document that refers to him as a Yeoman dated 1766: "Ann daur of John Pindar, yeoman, and of Jane, buried Dec 15th 1766.", from Kilham Parish Registers 1754-1812. But I have Ann as getting married to a John Sharp in 1794 . ("Page 39, No 149 - John Sharp of this parish of Kilham, farmer and batchelor and Ann Pinder of this parish, spinster, daughter of John Pinder the Elder, farmer " She dies in 1797. Is she the daughter of this Jonathan Pindar? Confused at this point...
     
  11. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    There is a transcription on FMP of the York Marriage Licence for John SHARPE & Anne PINDER which gives both their ages. Using this information the baptism nearest to this information is that of Ann daughter of John & Jane PINDAR, Farmer & Carpenter, at Kilham on 15 December 1766 - this is using information from both Bishop's Transcripts & Parish Registers. However, there is no burial for an Ann PINDAR in 1766 in either source, so I would guess that somewhere along the line there was an error in transcription and Ann's baptism is shown as a burial record.

    Having a look at newspaper records for John PINDAR/PINDER does bring up a reference to the John PINDAR of Snaith who is still in Snaith in 1767 according to an article in the Leeds Intelligencer, so I think you can probably rule him out now.

    If the Will of John PINDAR snr in 1797 mentions family members that you know relate to your family, then I think you are pretty safe to say that he is an ancestor of yours. Unfortunately, neither the parish registers nor the Bishop's Transcripts give his age at death. We have his marriage at Kilham in 1748 to Jane BEILLY but there do not appear to be any appropriate baptisms at Kilham for this John PINDAR/PINDER in fact the earliest PINDAR/PINDAR baptism I can find is that of son John in 1749 and FMP do have the registers/bishop's transcripts from at least the 1660's.

    Looking for links re the PINDARs of Burton Agnes, the earliest burial PINDAR burial at Kilham is that of Jonathan PINDER in 1742 who is shown as a Yeoman and coincidentally there is a Jonathan PINDER at Burton Agnes having children at about the correct time for a baptism of your John. Jonathan married an Elizabeth SHEPHERDSON and there are also baptisms in Kilham of children to a William SHEPHERDSON from the 1760's onwards. Very circumstantial at the moment, but it does look as if the families may well have moved between parishes.

    Jonathan (referred to as Jonathan junr) & Elizabeth look to have had the following children baptised at Burton Agnes:

    Jonathan in 1714, Elizabeth in 1716, Phyllis in 1717, Jonathan in 1720, Jane in 1721/22 & William in 1723. There is a burial in 1722/23 for a Jonathan son of Jonathan PINDAR junr & Elizabeth - so which Jonathan is this?? This is getting more complicated by the minute!

    I think Jonathan junr may have been the son of Jonathan & Phyllis as there is a burial for Phyllis PINDAR wife of Jonathan in 1713.

    Janet
     
  12. Stephen Pinder

    Stephen Pinder New Member

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    Hello Janet,


    Fantastic information you have dug up, particularly the newspaper article of John Pindar still being in Snaith in 1767 . We can rule him out as being part of the family with a fair amount of certainty. The forbearers of John Pindar/Pinder of Kilham (?-1797) will have to remain a mystery, for now, or, maybe not...


    Also good news regarding the probable transcription error for Ann Pinder. That one threw a monkey wrench into everything! The other subtle piece of information you pointed out is that the Father is referred to as a “Farmer & Carpenter, at Kilham” . I was becoming obsessed with the fact that many if not most of the records referred to him as a carpenter, and that there was no record of his apprenticeship in that field. It had me thinking that maybe we are looking at two different individuals.

    Now on to the elephant in the room: Jonathan Pinder. Is it possible that Jonathan, baptised 1714, or 1720.. (son of Jonathan and Elizabeth) is the brother of John Pinder/Pindar of Kilham (died 1797) ?
    Or as you previously mentioned, is the John Pindar of Kilham really Jonathan Pindar of Burton Agnes (ie., changed his name) ?

    These two towns aren't too far from each other as you mentioned, and the odds of two, unrelated branches of “Pindars”, is a bit suspect. Add in the common first names such as William and Jane …

    Well, this thing took an unexpected right turn!
     
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  13. Jack Pinder

    Jack Pinder New Member

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    Hello, John Pindar -1797 of Kilham is one of my 5th GGrandfather's. I am on familysearch.org William born 1806 is my link to my Canadian roots. (have his photo posted on site) I discovered some papers about land connections concerning Jane Beilby and John the younger in the Lloyd-Greame Family of Sewerby. Several transactions dating back to 1700 with Wm Hudleston. They are in the Hull University Archives. What I have I posted with John the younger on my site. You can view and download for free. Good work you have done here. I envy your trip to Kilham. Was disappointed their were not graves of the 1700's that are readable. Did a lot of research on Stephen. Wonder if he and brothers Wm and Samuel wrote letters to each other in those days. They were also a short train ride away
     
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