Known Facts & Family Stories.

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by Nightryder, May 7, 2015.

  1. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    From the birth cert,
    Victor Kirkbride, born 5th march 1896, 20 Lower Byrom Street (Manchester), father blank, mother Elizabeth Pegg, informant M J Thompson, Occupier 20 Lower Byrom Street.
    Baptised, 25th March 1896, St Johns Church Manchester, mother Eliza Pegge, 26 Durham Place Hulme, Housekeeper.
    In the 3rd Qtr of 1897 in Leicester there is a marriage of a Robert James Kirkbride to an Eliza Pegg.
    In the 1901 census Victor is age 5 & the adopted son of the Sabin family, 85 Denman Street Leicester
    In the 1911 census Victor is age 15 & the adopted son of the Greenwood family,12 Ash Street Leicester
    In the 1901 census Robert & Eliza are living in Fleetwood Lancashire with Robert G Kirkbride age 2 & N.K Kirkbride age 1 month, Robert is a building manager.
    In the 1911 census Eliza is living in Jarvis Brook Sussex, she is not the head of the household, married,With Robert George Kirkbride 12, Gladys May Kirkbride 10 & Elennor Bell Kirkbride age 6, 3 children born 3 still living. Robert signs the census form "for his wife".
    There is a Robert James Kirkbride Carpenter, married, boarding with the Muggridge family in Norwood, born Fleetwood.
    The family stories.
    Eliza worked at the Blackboy Hotel in Albion Street Leicester, Robert came to Leicester on business & this is how they met, Robert came from Tunstall, Lancashire.
    Victor always knew who his parents were & Eliza did visit him, on one occasion she caused a sensation by arriving at his school in a car.
    When Victor joined the army during WW1 one of his commanding officers new the Kirkbride family &
    was very curious why Victor had the Kirkbride name but he never let on, i believe this was to protect his mother.
    Victor married Hilda Rose Dawkins in the March Qtr of 1918 in Leicester, Victor & Hilda are my maternal grandparents.
    Grandma Hilda told me herself that they did go to visit Eliza & although she was pleased to see them she was worried about her daughter arriving home.
    Ive started a small tree on the Kirkbride family, i have ordered the marriage cert of Hilda & Victor (there is a small possibility he named Robert as his father) the next obvious cert would be the marriage of Eliza & Robert but before i do that i would like to know what everyone thinks, do i have enough evidence that both Eliza & Robert are Victor's parents.
     
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  2. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    It certainly sounds logical and evidence is compelling, but if it were me I would just wait and see if there is a father's name on the marriage cert which would confirm you findings. I would be tempted to look at Robert J Kilbride's family just to see if the name Victor crops up at all.
     
  3. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Molly May, that is a good thought, about the name Victor,Ive started to look into both the Kirkbride & Pegg families but i will send for the marriage cert for Robert & Eliza to be certain i have the right parents & as they were both in their late 20's by the time they married,theres a possibility either could have been married before, I just wonder why they didnt marry as soon as they knew Eliza was expecting.
     
  4. GrannyBarb

    GrannyBarb Custodian of the Family Accounts

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    Just remember that sometimes the "facts" on the certs are supplied by folks who, for whatever reason, give inaccurate information. o_O
     
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  5. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Yes please do get all the facts. I cannot seem to fit all the pieces together with Eliza? Elizabeth? Pegg? Pegge?:eek: I am sure I am probably looking too hard but I am not sure at this moment. It is certainly important to get the marriage cert at least you will hopefully know more. I am also thinking about him being adopted twice.:):)
     
  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Something has been bothering me.
    The address given for Victor's birth is 20 Lower Byrom St, yet when he is baptised 20 days later the address is Durham Place.

    I went back to the 1891 census and found living at 20 Lower Byrom St was the Thompson family + boarders RG12/3236/106/17
    Merren (sic) Thompson b1843 is a midwife.

    On the Children's homes website I found this upload_2015-5-7_16-42-33.png

    1877 was year of opening, 9 is the number of places and under 25 admission age

    So was Victor born in the refuge and midwife used her own address as his pob?
     
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  7. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Is it possible that Robert didn't know about Victor? hence awkwardness when he visited Eliza in later years? Victor may have been adopted soon after his birth if Eliza had no close kin to help her, although there is an Eliza mender of hosiery, living with family in 1881-1891 Pts George & Eliza.
    Otherwise, why should Robert-as his Father- not have had him Victor, with them after marriage?
     
  8. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    GrannyBarb, im not sure what i expect from the cert, im hoping he does name his father or maybe the name of a witness that is a surprise, when grandma Hilda told me they went to visit j dont know if this was before or after they got married, but if it was before, did they go to invite her to the wedding.
    Gillyflower, I at first assumed the Eliza/Elizabeth Pegg/Pegge was deliberate to confuse her identity, but as she did keep in some contact could just be what the informant knew or assumed, Victor being adopted twice was a surprise, but a present day descendant of the Sabin family told me Samuel Sabin was a horror, in & out of prison, he was even done for the attempted murder of his wife Mary.
    MollyMay, Eliza was too old for the refuge,29 ish, so maybe he was born in the home of the midwife, i would think that the midwife & board & lodgings would have to be paid for, was Eliza housekeeping localy to pay whatever she owed, I think she must have left Victor behind,when she moved to Durham Place, she couldnt have worked & cared for a newborn & although her name is on the baptism, i have no way of knowing if she attended.
    Wendy, Its very possible Robert didnt know, as they married anyway, why didnt they just marry before he was born, by 1901 they are in Lancashire, they could have moved there as a couple with a baby, no one would have known.
     
  9. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    Something else i have thought of, I dont see the Sabin or Greenwood families taking in an extra child without payment, certainly not the Greenwoods, Victor was very clever & did well at school, so well that the headmaster came to visit the family to ask if he could be allowed to stay on, they said no, they needed him out earning.
    If Eliza & or Robert was paying money for his keep, how would they have done it, just send money through the mail, I suppose the money would have stopped once he reached school leaving age.
     
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  10. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    The certificate finaly arrived today, Victor has named his father as Robert Pegg deceased
    Builder & Contractor, which was Robert Kirkbrides occupation, am i right in thinking that Victor would have had problems if he had given his fathers proper name as the registrar could have asked a lot of questions,but naming him as Robert Pegg especialy deceased would have just been accepted.
     
  11. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    No questions were asked and ministers recorded what they were told.

    Often, you can find a ficticious name for a father (plus 'deceased') if it was not known, so as to show some respectability on the certificate. Also, occupations of fathers can sometimes be found to be exaggerated so as to make them seem more important than they actually were.
     
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  12. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Indeed. I have a couple of instances of this, where I've known the real story.
     
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  13. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    Jan, i think i expected the fathers name to be blank or for it to have been Robert Kirkbride, but im still happy i have the right parents & think il order the marriage cert for Robert & Eliza & start adding to the small tree i have started, I might even be lucky & find another Victor in the family & with a tree "out there" i never know who might see it.
    Bay Horse, Victor always knew who his parents were its just a shame he didnt give his fathers proper name on the cert.
     
  14. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    On the marriage cert in 1918 Victor's address is 48 Navigation Street Leicester but FMP is not cooperating & brings up nothing for this street in 1911, the street is still there now according to google maps so am I doing something wrong in searching.
     
  15. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    http://
    search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc/1911/rg14/19178/0203/2
    48 Navigation Street RG14PN19178

    (Link split as FMP is commercial.)
     
  16. Nightryder

    Nightryder Well-Known Member

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    Wendy, I cant get that to work, what did you put in the search boxes.
     
  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I cannot access the link, but if you enter 48 Navigation street in the 'address' box and Leicestershire in the 'county box' - it came up for me.

    If that fails look for Isaac Liquorish b1850 - coachsmith:)
     
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  18. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Weird, that. When I copy paste: search.findmypast...space..
    co.uk/record?id=gbc/1911/rg14/19178/0203/2
    the page comes up. can't remember which entry finally came up with an address..think it was to do with electoral rolls & censuses.
     
  19. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Wendy - I get 'a cannot access that page message' - could it be only available to you on your subscription perhaps? Does that make any sense?:confused:
     
  20. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Possibly MollyMay. I have world sub on FMP. Did you leave out the space (put in for reasons of commercial usage.)
    copy/paste link after 'search' #15
     

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