Lipman Lipman or Lewis Lipman? what one is my 4th Great Grandad? HELP PLEASE!

Discussion in 'General Family History Queries' started by Nick Saunders, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Yep!... tough isnt it!!!...
    Is there anyway of finding out for certain?......
     
  2. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    I don't know, I usually go by the marriage certificate.

    Hopefully one of our other members can chip away at it.
     
  3. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Thank you so much for all your time and effort on this, you have been very informative.
     
  4. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Do the marriage witnesses Levy & Moss have any connection to family? or are they present at any other event? I tend to believe 'Freedom of the City' papers before a marriage license for names as they can easily be mistaken by the clergy or the person being married , especially if the groom/ bride had lost a parent at an early age. Other family members tend to stand out as carers & be misrepresented. [quite a few in my families]
    The other record you show is not necessarily more correct than yours, if by a person paid forthe job, they may have been more interested in a nice complete document & missed conflicting evidence of similar names.
    Also people did have more than one abode.

    I think Terry has done very well. Are there any Ethical Wills known of in the family?
     
  5. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Thanks Wendy, i will look into Levy & Moss.
    So just to clarify you would tend to believe Freedom of City certs over marriage license for the reasons you have given. In that case, i'm still holding out that Lipman Lipman is my 4th Great Grandad & not my 4th great uncle.
     
  6. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Sorry I had to leave site Nick, Yes, I have had many disppointments with certificates & Church records which I know to be true but which had a name wrong usually of Father.
    I do have Papers for 'Freedom of the City' which have been verified by wills & other records on paid websites.
     
  7. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Thanks so much for your help Wendy and Terry on this. For now i will keep my family tree as it was with Lipman Lipman being my 4th Great Grandad. In the meantime if you can find out any more information that would be great, i dont have much on Lewis Lipman, would be great to get an old photo of his coffee house or somrthing? im looking at Phils Building, Still Alley, Hounsdich, Aldgate but cant seem to find anything apart from census that say Lewis worked as a Coffee House/beer retailer and possibly as a cook? Nick
     
  8. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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  9. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Great find!..

    "A bit of colour -although I can only see a snippet as I don't have a sub, on 18-20th Feb 1848, Lewis Lipman of Field Place, Houndsditch (Houndsditch is in the address in the freedom of the city, it's an area of St Botolph's). He's a beer shop and coffee house keeper, was fined for selling spirits. There may be more..."

    Do you know where i will find this record?
     
  10. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Oh dear, I didn't say where it was! But at a guess i would say I looked at the British Newspaper Archive. If you Google it will come up, and then you have the date and some keywords to search for
     
  11. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Wendy asked the question below in red. #24

    'Do the marriage witnesses Levy & Moss have any connection to family? or are they present at any other event?'


    In the thread you have just forwarded to me Annabel i noticed these 2 names that do have a connection to Lewis Lipman on his Marriage cert. Please see below. I might be clutching at straws here and i havent yet worked out if the dates work but could these 2 mentioned been the Moses & Levy on the Marriage cert as being 'in the presence of'

    Joseph Lipman son of Lewis of Phils Buildings married Julia Lipman dau of Levy Lipman in the Novo Synogogue 1849
    John Lipman son of Lewis married Rose dau of Michael Lipman 1857 in the same place
    So this generation at least used the Novo


    Moss/ Moses Lipman b London 1809 and who is in Glasgow in 1841 and 1851 (freecen), died in Scotland in 1864. His death certificate is available on Scotland's people and may possibly name his father and mother.

    In the presence of us - Moses & Levy

    [​IMG]
     
  12. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    That's what I was wondering, so It might be a clue to follow up. I'm a bit confused, but I think that this leans towards Lewis again? However, they do seem to be all related, so it might not :confused:
     
  13. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

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    this Jonas his father was Michael Lipman 4 Stoney lane Aldgate married Hannah Lazurus 20 1 1852
    the lewis Lipman as father in New $ Hambro Synagogues are as follows
    Henry age 22 93 Middlesex St Whitechapel m Fanny Jacobs age 20 father Michael Jacobs dec 10 Love Court Whitechapel on 10 05 1860
    John age 21 91 Middlesex st Whitechapel m Rose Lipman age 21 father Michael Lipman same address on 05 08 1857
    Jonas age 22 4 Cooks Blds Aldgate m Rachael Jacobs age 21 father Judah Jacobs same address on 04 02 1849
    Joseph age 22 1 Phills Blds m Julia Lipman age 20 Father Lewis Lipman same address on 06 06 1849
    Mark age 20 21 Primrose St m Blumah Jacobs a minor father Michael Jacobs same address on 30 05 1843
    there is also a Morris Lipman father Eleazer Lipman 15 Love Court St Mary Whitechapel m a Rosetta Frank father just Frank 2 Love Court on 24 11 1844
    seem to remember them from last theme.
    I know all these lipmans may not be same family but they are only ones in the Lewins translated book. might help:D
     
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  14. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Alexander Moss & Moses Levy. I just tried Alexander Moss on FreeBMD. first up a death in 1850- E.London, but it doesn't show on RGO. then I reversed the name, lots out there- in other areas. I checkked to see if I had one in my family of Moses but no.
    Many entries for Moses Levy also but too late for births.

    I too recognised the Lipman name but took it to be an earlier mention of yours, being so late to the forum for me, I didn't check. :(
    So glad annabel did so.
     
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  15. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

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    One thing to remember with synagogue marriages is often the witnesses are members of the synagogue not neccesarily related
     
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  16. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    Thanks guys!.. some great information there for me to digest and take away.
    Its a mystery that for sure!.. Lipman or Lewis, Lewis or Lipman...
     
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  17. Nick Saunders

    Nick Saunders Member

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    I have found this Electoral Register from 1855 that shows both Jonas & Lewis working in the same area as each other, Jonas being a 30 year old Orange Merchant & Lewis being a 54 year old Coffee House keeper.

    I know it still doesn't identify if Lewis is his father or not, but just found it interesting?

    upload_2020-9-11_14-23-53.png
     
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  18. Figgs

    Figgs Well-Known Member

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    Lordy, this sounds so familiar. I have a friend in New Jersey, US by name of David Lipman and years ago we worked on his London ancestors. I did find one census record in my PDF file which he sent me. But for the life of me, can't find the year. Perhaps someone with better eyeballs than me can find it. Looks to be about 10 people.
     

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  19. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    @Figgs that is the 1901 census

    RG13
    Piece number 290
    Folio 15
    Page 19
     
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  20. Figgs

    Figgs Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Chimpie.......I could not find it at all and was flying blind as my research was at least 10-15 years ago! Ran a search in Windows Explorer and that is the only Lipman document I had.....deleted the rest I guess. However, I do recall that they all lived in basically the same area of London and were employed in the usual trades of Jewish folks in those days. (tailor, milliner, etc.)
     
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