Mary Draper - a sad life.

Discussion in 'Wiltshire' started by The Artful Dodger, May 8, 2014.

  1. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    In the past, both on Top Dog and on another forum, I have made references to Mary - my 3rd Great-grandmother.

    Much of what I had developed had been has been added to my 'public' tree but has now been refuted by a person who claims my detail is suspect and so I am going to ask for assistance here and hopefully resolve the issue once and for all.

    According to Wiltshire FHS Mary was born 2 July 1797. They advised that the image of the baptism register was in poor condition and that the place of baptism and other details could not be ascertained. I accepted this and couldn't get back further. Her later life was quite sad, hence the thread title.

    My contact has now stated that the baptism was held 2 July 1797 in West Lavington, Wiltshire and her parents were John Draper - a Carter by trade - and Elizabeth [Betty] Sainsbury who were married on 24 May 1795 in West Lavington. West Lavington does not have a OPC and so, having already contacted Wiltshire FHS, I cannot approach them once again.

    Can anyone assist on this?
     
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  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    I am confused, Colin. o_O

    According to post number 8 in this thread, you stated that Wiltshire FHS said that she was baptised on 2nd July 1797.

    Are you asking for assistance in confirming whether she was born or baptised on that date?
     
  3. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Sorry Jan.

    Originally, I had it from Wiltshire FHS that it was a baptism and later I got a correction that it could have been her date of birth, so I am trying to determine what exactly does the baptism record indicate.

    I think that viewing the original rather than a film or a transcription may help.
     
  4. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    If it is an entry in a baptism register for 1797, it would be a baptism. A date of birth would be a secondary entry - perhaps in the margin - if it was recorded at all. There would not be just a birth record on its own in a baptism register.
     
  5. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Let us leave this for the moment.

    If we can confirm the marriage details from West Lavington - 24 May 1795 - I may yet be able to find baptisms of other children that may be siblings of Mary.
     
  6. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    A sad life - let me say that Mary didn't have much choice!!Depending on what can be revealed from the above about parents and possible siblings, I have made some assumptions about her early life and up to the time she married my 3rd Great-grandfather.

    These I will not reveal.

    The 1st sighting of Mary was her marriage on 7 May 1829 in the Parish of St. Botolph, Aldgate. Mary was a resident of the Parish of St. Mary, Whitechapel. Both signed their names. I cannot make out the names of the witness who also signed. Source - London England Marriages and Banns 1754-1921.

    Between 1830 and 1836, she and Thomas had 4 children. They were:
    Sarah Anne - born 10 February 1830
    Thomas Digby - born 1 August 1831
    Mary Eliza - born 2 November 1833
    Susannah - born 31 August 1836.
    All children were baptised - the residence for each baptism was John Street, St. Mary, Whitechapel. The occupation of Thomas was noted either as Police Messenger or Messenger. Source - London England Births and Baptisms 1813-1906.

    Sarah Anne died - no date specified in register - and was buried 8 June 1832. Source - London England Deaths and Burials 1813-1980

    1841 Census - H0107, Piece 716, Book 3, Page 1 - finds the family still living on John Street, St. Mary, Whitechapel. His occupation is indicated as Police but in fact he was a Police Court Messenger.

    In 1842, Thomas became ill and his death occurred in his residence on John Street about 3 July 1842. Cause of death was Consumption. His burial was on 10 July 1842. Source - London England Deaths and Burials 1813-1980 and his Death Certificate.

    After the death of Thomas things became [apparently] difficult for Mary. It is on this that my assumptions were made.

    Thomas Digby - my 2nd Great-grandfather - was aged 14 in early 1846. Mary as a former birth-resident of Wiltshire, made application to the Wiltshire Society for an Apprenticeship for Thomas Digby. This was granted and he became apprenticed to a Surgical Instrument Maker by the end of 1846 until attaining the age of 21.

    Mary Eliza by 1847 was a resident of #8 Gilbert Street, St. Giles in the Fields . Her 'landlady' was the informant on her death aged 13 on 2 April 1847. Mary Eliza was buried 10 April 1847. From her death certificate the cause of death was Phthisis - but the Doctor who certified it made some other comments which are not usually found on a D.C. for a 13 year old girl.

    Now back to the elusive Mary Draper and, more importantly, why did she do what she did after the death of Thomas? If I have the right parents then her father died in 1840 - Oct.-Dec. q. - vol. 8 page 217 and her mother died in 1841 - Oct.-Dec.q. - vol. 8 page *4

    Mary died 1 April 1849 - residence Museum Street, Bloomsbury. The informant indicated her age as 67. I know I have the right death certificate. Life must have been difficult for her as if she was born/baptised 1797 then her age was only 51.

    The last child - Susannah - in 1851 census - H0107 Piece 1513 Folio 312 Page 33 - at a School for young ladies who wanted to turn their lives around. She wasn't yet 15 years old.
     
  7. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    I am not ashamed of Mary - I believe she did what she had to do in order to survive.

    Her son who I briefly alluded to is my reason for being here and I THANK Mary for helping him.
     
  8. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Quite possibly, I shouldn't have made post #6 & 7 - but I did.

    So can we attempt to find the parents of Mary - who was either born or baptised 2 July 1797?
     
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  9. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    I have been digging in my files about this family and have discovered 2 sets of details relating to Mary Draper.

    One refuted the information I had - see quote above.

    Here is a brief outline the 2nd set:
    1] John Draper is supposed to have been born in Market Lavington in 1769. There is no indication of a baptism. Parents have been named as well as a date of marriage, but neither of the parents were from Wiltshire, didn't marry in Wiltshire, didn't die in Wiltshire and the date of the supposed marriage was more than 2 years after the supposed birth of John. Rhere are no sources indicated for any of the claimed detail.

    2] Elizabeth Sainsbury was Christened in West Kington 24 November 1779 and I have found the confirmation of this and the parents are named as John and Elizabeth. This person who contacted me has not only not named the parents but seems to have 'created' a year of birth as 1773 but names place of birth as Bishops Lavington.

    3] We both agree that the marriage of John and Elizabeth was 24 May 1795. The actual marriage record indicates the marriage was in West Lavington, but my contract has the marriage in Market Lavington.

    4] Market Lavington is where it is claimed 4 Christenings and 1 death took place as follows:
    John - 20 May 1795 [4 days before the date of marriage in West Lavington]
    Mary - 2 July 1797 - this is my Mary
    James - 4 August 1799
    John - 12 July 1801
    All these, it is claimed, were provided by the OPC for Market Lavington.

    As for the 1st John it is assumed he died before the Christening of the John in 1801

    So I think this person is off-base.

    What do others think?
     
  10. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    You have to be careful. Without reliable sources a tree is not really that useful - a starting point perhaps - but worth remembering that a lot could be pure conjecture! I think you best bet is to email Wiltshire Records office.
     
  11. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    I cannot find a Mary Draper b 1797 at West Lavington but one was 1809 and the other 1810. Doesn't mean it is not there but it certainly isn't on the Hugh Wallis site. ditto fo John Draper b 1769 Market Lavington - cannot find any early records. You really have to check again with the records/archive office
     
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  12. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    I am not ignoring you Gillyflower - I was out.

    I'll look into what you've found as soon as I can, but can you tell me who the parents were for the ones in 1809 and 1810? Hope they may indicate the maiden name of the mother.
     
  13. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Do you want more from my findings since yesterday @ 2.56pm or should I keep procrastinating?
     
  14. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Colin
    You know you want to share so go ahead ;), you don't actually need permission from anyone :):)

    and it is unfair to keep us waiting ... so stop teasing :rolleyes:
     
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  15. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    On my way to the dentist - back later. You all will probably laugh - but I'm hopeful anyway.
     
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  16. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    OK, I'm back. In my posts at the outset, I may have made some errors.

    1st of all - the baptism advice was back in September 2011 and from Wiltshire FHS. then later I received a comment from another person at Wiltshire FHS.
    So I have a 'probable' baptism date of 2 July 1797 for Mary Draper but the indications were that the location of the baptism and the names of the parents could not be discerned.

    Then I started looking at 'public trees' and the majority had parents as John Draper and Elizabeth Sainsbury and that Mary was baptised in either Market Lavington or West Lavington.
    I managed to make contact with several tree owners. Some had no sources and had nothing to add. Others did but only the Indexes of events - no supporting documents. The general consensus was that Elizabeth [Draper] died in various place in Wiltshire between 1837 and 1846. All agreed that her husband John Draper died in 1840 but none had his death certificate.
    One respondent has this to tell me - "Elizabeth was known as Betty to differentiate her from her Mother - also named Elizabeth. As Elizabeth [her baptismal name] she married John Draper. No baptisms of children have bee confirmed on Ancestry for parents John and Elizabeth or Betty prior to a Rebeckha 31 Jan 1808 which I don't like. I am aware of the Apprenticeship Application and will obtain details and advise". Sadly that was the last contact.

    As a member of another forum, I managed to make contact with the OPC for Market Lavington.
    Here is his message of 26 October 2011 - "My records do not show a marriage between John Draper and Elizabeth Sainsbury in Market Lavington.
    My BIVRI discs give the following
    DRAPER, John - Marriage
    Wife: Elizabeth SAINSBURY
    Marriage Date: 24 May 1795 Recorded in West Lavington, Wiltshire, England.
    Source: FHL Film 950273 Dates 1778-1813

    and

    DRAPER, Richard - Marriage
    Wife: Elizabeth SAINSBURY
    Marriage Date: 24 Dec. 1795 Recorded in West Lavington, Wiltshire, England.
    Source: FHL Film 950273 Dates 1778-1813

    Just for interest there was also
    SAINSBURY, Richard - Marriage
    Wife: Elizabeth DRAPER
    Marriage Date: 16 May 1768 Recorded in Urchfont, Wiltshire, England.
    Source: FHL Film 1279346 Dates 1698-1838

    and

    DRAPER, William - Marriage
    Wife: Elizabeth SAINSBURY
    Marriage Date: 15 Feb. 1809 Recorded in West Lavington, Wiltshire, England.
    Source: FHL Film 950723 Dates 1778-1813

    I have no trace of any baptism for Mary Draper in Market Lavington [where I speak with reasonable confidence] or West Lavington which is outside my area really".

    My attempts to link these folks - if there is a link has been futile. All I have found is a Baptism: John Draper - Male - Christening 7 Mar. 1773 - Urchfont - Parents Charles and Sarah Draper .

    Further comments from the OPC
    "I certainly have no access to [or even knowledge of] the Apprenticeship Registers of the Wiltshire Society 1817-1922. But I can see rhat they are held by the Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre at the Chippenham so an appeal to them might help"

    Using their contact page to send an email request resulted in NO response. Should I try again?

    The final comment of the OPC is, in my opinion, quite profound - "In my experience with parish records, you only get a balance of probability and never a complete certainty".

    So if everything is 'up in the air' where do I start? What I am looking for is - a reasonable degree of probability.

    Mary's life after marriage in 1829 is factual, carved in stone and backed by documents - see posts #6 & 7
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  17. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Sorry for late reply - yes 1. Mary Draper ch 23rd July 1809 at West Lavington
    parents Joseph Draper and Betty. 2. Mary Ann Draper ch 24th June 1810 -same place parents John Draper and Sarah.
     
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  18. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    This looks promising - particularly the one dated 23 July 1809. I'll look at this shortly to see if there is a marriage and any other stuff concerning this couple.
    If you are able can you assist me further?
     
  19. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Well, I looked and found stuff - but does it fit or am I attempting to Make it Fit?

    There is a marriage in West Lavington between Joseph Draper and Elizabeth Dark on 20 Oct. 1807.

    Baptisms and death date of children in West Lavington - parents Joseph and Elizabeth:
    John - 7 Feb. 1808 and death 8 Apr. 1808
    Ann - 11 Aug. 1811
    Elizabeth -26 Dec. 1813
    John - 2 Jun. 1816 and death 3 Jul. 1817
    Sarah - 8 Nov. 1818
    John - 24 Mar. 1821
    Jane - 2 Nov. 1823
    Samuel - 5 Nov. 1826

    Then there is the baptism found by gillyflower.

    Could Betty/Elizabeth be the same person? I have not found a suitable burial for Elizabeth but there is this one for Betty:
    4 Nov. 1826 - St. John The Baptist, Devizes, Wiltshire - FHL Film #1279447 - Reference ID: p.55. Devizes, I believe also covered West Lavington.

    Could Mary as the oldest daughter of Betty/Elizabeth taken care of the baby Samuel while her father worked and later left home and moved to Middlesex where she married Thomas in 1829?

    Comment/suggestions appreciated
     
  20. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    I am awaiting a response from Swindon and Wiltshire Archives. Will keep you in the loop
     
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