My grandfather J H Esp, abandoned at birth.

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by Chrissie Rivers, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Thank you so much for looking up all this information and your continued support. It is really appreciated.
    Chrissie
     
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  2. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Thank you so much for looking this up. It is really appreciated. At least we know babies were registered there at the time. I wonder how long mothers stayed there before and after giving birth?
    Kind regards,
    Chrisse
     
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  3. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    It's also interesting that some of the babies were not registered.

    Googling around, I've only picked up on a few bits of information.

    Birth of a Hubert Jordan in 1898 - not registered but baptised in Ardwick, then death registered shortly after.

    Birth of a Kathleen Marsden 1893, registered. In family tree notes the father is mentioned as being disowned by his family if he married the mother. (He didn't).

    Birth of a Glyn Jones Roberts in 1911. Descendant notes that in childhood someone called round to his home regularly to pay for his upkeep.

    The last two have shades of the scenario Mealy alluded to in an earlier post - the possibility that John Henry Esp's father arranged both the birth in Chorlton and the adoption with the Heads. Does seem possible!
     
  4. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Thank you Grizel. That certainly seems likely. If the father was indeed a member of staff or someone who lived in the household where Nellie worked, then the Heads were probably chosen for their discretion and the fact that they were childless. On the other hand, could George be the father all along as suggested earlier. I just wondered why the sighting of JHEsp as a young child caused tongues to wag in the village. Someone knew something wasn't right which caused the Heads to move out of the area and not Nelly after she had Lucy.

    My Dad thinks the Head's may have been paid to keep quiet. George later had his own small holding and a bungalow was also built on the land. When his money ran out, my Dad said he ended up in an institution/workhouse years after Nellie died.

    I don't really like to bother the person again on ancestry for more information about Nellie. I asked some great questions, but she did not answer them all. I assume she did not have any further information to add. For Nellie to disclose to her sister (Lucy Esp) about the baby she had to give up, must have been particularly hard for her. John must have held a special place in her heart.
    All the best,
    Chrissie
     
  5. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Here is a hypothesis ,well two, - feel free to knock down ! I expect you may have had similar ideas in any case.

    If the 'village' that the Heads moved away from is Claverley ( and it may not be) then they were already moved on by the 1901 census, possibly in order to receive the baby. If that is the case it could be that the family they were working for just prior to that, was the same family connected to the baby's father in some way.
    Of course if the Heads moved away at that date then young John would not have been at school there. But maybe the gossip and pointing took place when they came back to Claverley for visits.
    We don't know who the Heads were employed by immediately before 1901, but in 1891 they were living at Broad Lanes just south of Claverley so perhaps someone can work out who their employer might have been then.... sorry I don't have access to any subscription sites at the moment.
    I have had a look at places employing gamekeepers n 1881 - Bulwardine, Shipley Common, Woundale High Manor, Rudge Heath - there may be others - but that's as far as I've got with that.

    Alternatively the employer connected to the baby's father could be the one in Biddulph and Biddulph could be the'village' prompting the move away to Lincolnshire as in 1911. In that case we need to try to determine possible shooting estates there.

    Just my current thoughts.... Now I really must get on with other things this morning - but what a lovely distraction genealogy can be! :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  6. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Morning Grizel,

    Your possible scenarios are my thoughts too. If JHE's natural father was a chap from the village the villagers would likely know who he was and perhaps were pointing young John Henry out as Mr ???????? son! As to which village, hmm! could be Biddulph (and Nellie had been a servant girl there) or perhaps nearer to Nellie's home. Unfortunately we don't know where either Nellie, or the Heads were between census.

    I too have to leave the search for now as I'm meeting friends soon. Back on the case later ;)
     
  7. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Hi there. I like your scenario's. I'm going to fire off a few emails to people on ancestry related to Nellie's husband, Thomas Rowe. Maybe, just maybe, they have a story that has been passed on through their family generations.
    Chrissie
     
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  8. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Briefly back home!
    Have we come round the full circle back to post #8 and the Biddulph Grange scenario I wonder?....... :)
     
  9. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Just another snippet. I looked more closely at an original census document for 1901 and it lists Nellie's status as a patient, however it also said her occupation was a servant in Broseley, Shropshire.
    Stop press.....
    Lucy Esp's granddaughter wanted to know all about JH Esp and what happened to him. As soon as I have some photo's of him in just over two weeks time, I will email the pictures of my grandfather to her and gently ask some more questions. You never know...All the info I have passed onto my dad has certainly jogged his memory, and it might jog Lucy's granddaughter too.;) I told my dad that I had been in contact with his half cousin! He loved that.:)
    Kind regards
    Chrissie
     
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  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Hi Chrissie, the census says Nellie was a general domestic servant, but doesn't say in Broseley, says she was born Broseley Shropshire.

    I hope Lucy Esp's grand daughter is able to give you more info, that would be great :). Fingers crossed that her memory is jogged.
     
  11. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Probably my mind working overtime but worth maybe a consideration.
    Fanny had a brother John born 1860. In 1871 he is 11 and a farm servant living with his family including Fanny.
    1881 an ag lab age 21 still with family but no father
    1891 cant see him but haven't looked too hard.
    1901 he is married to Sarah. He is 40 years old and a carter on a farm at Quatt Malvern Bridgnorth. He has two children, Sarah 4 and a son HENRY 3.
    Could it be a possibility that John Payne, Fanny's brother is the father of John Henry?
    Then gave to the baby to Fanny and George to raise with Nellies knowledge.
    :nailbiting:
     
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  12. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Hi Sue. That is a great scenario and a strong contender. I think I will be firing off a few sensitive emails to people who have looked into Fanny Payne's family history. We all know the old adage 'too many cooks spoil the broth', however when it comes to geneology, the more the merrier!
    Chrissie
     
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  13. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Oh, whoops, I boobed. :oops: Many thanks for clearing that one up.
    Chrissie
     
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  14. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Sorry to break it to you, Sue :(, but Henry is still with John and Sarah A Payne in 1911 they've now moved to Halfpenny Green, Bobbington, Stourbridge
     
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  15. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Oops. I think you misunderstood. Not the son Henry but another with Nellie and given the names John Henry by Nellie.
     
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  16. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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  17. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    This is such a good thread. First port of call after I log on. :)
     
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  18. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    A couple of other thoughts.
    George almost certainly worked for the Heath family on the Biddulph Grange estate in 1901 - Woodhouse farm was part of the estate.
    It could be worth contacting the Biddulph and District Genealogy and Historical Society. (They have a website with contact details). Someone there might know if there are estate records of staff, village school records, mentions of the Heads or rumours of scandals concerning the Big House....

    Staffordshire Archives do seem to have estate and family records of the Heath family in their online catalogue but these seem to be mainly property deeds etc, also letters and papers of Robert Heath and sons - probably concerned with the business. I suppose unlikely to find records of payments to George Head for young John! .......
     
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  19. Chrissie Rivers

    Chrissie Rivers Active Member

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    Hi Grizel. Many thanks indeed for this information. My computor decided to do a wobbly recently and I was locked out. Thankfully, all is ok now, but it drove me:mad: at the time.
    I will contact the society ASAP, it's a fantastic route to explore. I have not received any new emails from ancestry members at the moment, but it is early days. I've been amazed at the fantastic response I have received and can't believe how quickly JH Esp's mother was discovered by the folk on this site. Everyone is certainly a TOP DOG and I would like to award trophys to everyone, but I don't know how to do thato_O
    Chrissie
     
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  20. Doug

    Doug Administrator. The Main Man. Staff Member

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    The trophies are awarded by the forum software based on the number of posts made and likes received. :)
     
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