My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Hi, My Grandma (b. Ipswich Suffolk 1874-d. Woolwich London 1937) is supposed to have had an illegitimate child before she married my Grandad in 1902. She was in domestic service before she married. I'm using findmypast to look at birth/marriage/death registrations for my family. I cannot think of any way at all to check if this event happened or is just apocryphal. I assume any child she had had would have been given her surname and not the father's. Does anyone have any suggestions about what I could try or where I could look to locate the birth? Nobody is still alive who knew my Grandparents. Thanks for any help.
     
  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Hello Eric - welcome to the forum! :)

    Yes, you would be right that any child would just have your grandmother's surname.

    If you post your grandmother's details, I am sure that the members will have a rummage and see if they can help. :)
     
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  3. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    You could try the GRO index.

    Enter your grandmother's surname and 1902 and see if any births come up without a mother's maiden name. If she has a very common name though it might be a long job unless you know roughly where she was at that time.

    Or as Jan says let us see if we can help - Oh and Welcome C|:-)
     
  4. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    She was Agnes Sarah Garrard, Born Q2 1874 Ipswich, Sufflok.
    Appears again in the 1891 Census as a Domestic Servant living in Brakespears Road, St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, London.
    Eventually married in Q4 1902
    Between 1874 and 1902 I can find no other details about her. If she had a child out of wedlock it would be somewhere in this 28 year period I guess. That's quite a long time.
     
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  5. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Thanks for your suggestion friend. It cannot be done on the GRO database because "Surname at Birth" is a mandatory field. I have to enter something. If I search for Surname=Garrard and Mother's Maiden Name=Garrard with birth year set to 1902 I get no matching results (Neither male nor female)
     
  6. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Sorry, I just figured out what you meant. My apologies. I'll try it and get back to you.
     
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  7. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Hi Eric.

    Illegitimate births weren't as uncommon as people often believe around that time. My grandma's first child was illegitimate, seven years before she married my grandad.

    There was a John Garrard (no mother's maiden name given) born in Greenwich in 1901. (GRO index).
     
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  8. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    OK. I got 2 births with the correct surname with the birth year set as 1902 +/-2

    GARRARD, JOHN -
    GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1017

    GARRARD, NELLY ELLEN -
    GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1022

    I guess the thing to do now is to see if findmypast records the Mother's Maiden Name also as Garrard for either of these 2 births. I'll have a go.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
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  9. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Thanks. Yes. I can see that one now. I'll check it.
     
  10. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    You're right, Agnes Sarah seemed to be keeping her head down in the 1901 census. :confused:

    Edited to add - she's still a domestic servant, Agnes S. Garrett of Ipswich.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
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  11. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Agnes in 1901 - RG13/539/69/37 - surname as Garrett
    a servant at 60 Old Woolwich Road, Greenwich
     
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  12. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    No. 60 is a pub and it's still there. The Star and Garter.
     
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  13. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    If I run these 2 births -

    GARRARD, JOHN -
    GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1017

    GARRARD, NELLY ELLEN -
    GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1022

    through findmypast it seems that the mother's maiden name is not recorded for either, at least on the transcription of the birth record. The image of the record contains no additional information. Does this mean that I'd have to purchase these 2 birth certificates from the GRO to find out the mother's maiden name? Is mother's maiden name always recorded for illegitimate births? Thanks for your assistance with this.
     
  14. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    You can get the birth certs in PDF format, Eric (lot cheaper). What you would probably see is the mother's full details, but the box where the father's name should be would be struck through.
     
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  15. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Brilliant! OK, I've got that now. Very good. I'd say that's almost certainly her. The surname has been mangled and the birth year is out by +1 but these details might have been reported by a third party perhaps. The connection with licensed victuallers is also consistent, since she married a barman, my grandfather, who had previously worked at the Yorkshire Grey (now The Garrison Public House) in Bermondsey Street and The Mechanics Arms in the High Street, Deptford (now an "African-fusion takeaway", whatever that is)
     
  16. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    It's a pity her husband's army papers were so faded in connection with spouse & children as the names & ages do not show up very well - on Ancestry. They seem to be the same as on 1911 census tho. which has Agnes as 6 yrs old.
    Class: RG14; Piece: 2600
    Possible that a first child was named in the father's name. 1903 seems to be the first child acccording to 1911 census, unless the child died.
     
  17. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    As you have just given Q4 and 1902 for her marriage I'm not sure if you have the marriage image. Just in case you don't here it is.
    upload_2019-9-28_7-37-1.png
     
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  18. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I could only find 2 baptisms for Robert and Agnes' children

    upload_2019-9-28_7-57-31.png
    Harry at St Luke Deptford


    upload_2019-9-28_7-59-14.png

    Albert at St Paul Brixton
     
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  19. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Just found Agnes at St Barnabas Rotherhithe (name transcribed as Menter:rolleyes:)
    upload_2019-9-28_8-5-34.png
     
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  20. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    MINTER, AGNES ELIZABETH GERTRUDE
    Mother's maiden name: GARRARD
    1905 S Quarter in ST OLAVE BERMONDSEY Volume 01D Page 263

    (Transcript only)

    Agnes Eliz'th G. Minter
    Baptism date: 1905 Aug 23, St Barnabas, Rotherhithe, Surrey
    Father: Robert
    Mother: Agnes
     
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