My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Well, I found a James Pollard in Camberwell in 1891 who was a waiter, but I think he was a James Alfred Pollard who married a Priscilla Woodward in 1873.

    I suppose William's middle names, George Edward, could be after his Grandfather - all supposition on my part. Will keep looking.
     
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  2. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    That is very interesting that the William G E Garrard b 1896 worked for the BBC in 1939, Jellylegs. The 1972 death certificate could be worth obtaining.
    It could also be worth contacting the BBC to ask about staff records.

    The birth cert also looks interesting to me. I can't find James Edward Garrard and Sarah Agnes Garrard or Pollard so far. Could be family making sure William had a legitimate birth certificate. Mother was the informant. The address could also be a clue. Craig Court in Upper Orwell Street I think.
    Do wish we could find them all in 1901!
    Agnes brother Charles was certainly in Ipswich at his marriage in 1901.
     
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  3. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Grizel, Craig Court was in/off Upper Orwell Street, Ipswich.
     
  4. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    I have been searching military records.

    There is one for a William GARRARD - Gunner, Royal Field Artillery. Unfortunately, I cannot find a service record, but have found a medical record and two medal cards.

    The medical record says he was admitted to the 18th General Hospital on 10 December 1916 as a result of deafness. He returned to duty on 16 December 1916. I think the 18th General Hospital was in France.

    The first medal card I found had him listed as William Garrard with two numbers: 2401 (the same number as the chap on the Medical record) and 931134.

    The second number took a bit of searching, but I eventually found it. On that one he is listed as Wm George GARRARD
    Rank: Gunner - Corps: RFA No. 3 O.C.S.
    Enlisted:29.10.15
    Discharged: 04.03.19 (Para 392 - XVI ARS)

    On searching for No. 3 O.C.S, I found it stands for No. 3 Officer Cadet School.
    Further searching found it was at Weedon - and where is Weedon? - Daventry, which is the Registration District where William G. E. Garrard and his wife were in the 1939 census and where his occupation is Electrician BBC Daventry.

    Unfortunately, this still doesn't prove he is yours.

    I wonder if sending off for his marriage certificate would give any clues - maybe witnesses were of his family.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  5. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Very encouraging. Your theory that maybe this couple were my Grandma and the father of her illegitimate child seems plausible to me. I think they may both be hiding their identities somewhat but going through the procedures to get their child a birth certificate and of course to avoid breaking the law. It does raise the question why didn't they just get married? It was not illegal to wed after a child had been born although I'm sure it would have been shameful. I don't know.

    I've had another wild idea which I will run past you all. Feel free to shoot it down, it's a bit dramatic. I cannot find any trace of a James Edward Garrard or, as you say, his marriage with Agnes Sarah Pollard. But then I cannot find any trace of Agnes Sarah Pollard either. There are James Garrards and Agnes Pollards but that's it. I can't find an Agnes Pollard marrying a James Garrard either that would fit this timescale. So, it occurred to me that the hidden identities could be

    Agnes Sarah Pollard =
    Agnes Sarah Garrard (My Grandma aged 22 in 1896)
    James Edward Garrard =
    John James Garrard (My Grandma's younger brother, aged 17 in 1896)

    The idea is that brother James is helping his sister out of a very difficult situation and posing as her husband and that maybe their parents were not aware. This wouldn't work if parents had to prove identity when they registered a birth in 1896.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  6. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know the actual nuts and bolts of registering a birth in 1896? I ask because it seems to me that it may have been quite lax. The certificate asks for name of "Informant". If this means the person who actually turns up at the Registrar's office to go through the formalities then maybe it was not even required that both parents be present. It would be difficult for serving soldiers, sailors, etc. If this is true then maybe a deception would be even easier as no male accomplice would be required. All that would be necessary would be for Agnes Sarah to turn up and give a fake father's name, thus avoiding involving anyone else at all. I haven't got a clue.
     
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  7. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Aha - have found some of the family!

    1901 census - 13 Pender Street, St. Paul, Deptford, Greenwich.

    Various transcriptions, depending which site you look at, (Garrett/Garrod/Garrord) but:-

    George Edward (Head) b 1849 Essex - Hammerman
    Agnes Hannah (Wife) b 1853 Bradfield, Suffolk - Home duties
    Charles W (Son) b 1871 Plumstead, Kent - Furnace man
    Laura (Wife - (of Charles)) b 1874 Ipswich, Suffolk - Home duties

    Now then, living next door is a family by the name of WOODWARD - all born Middlesex.

    In my post #181 I mentioned that I had found a James Pollard, a waiter who appeared to have married Priscilla Woodward. I wonder if this is her family? Will have to investigate.
     
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  8. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    .... because if it was the James Pollard that I found (occupation Waiter), then because he was already married. Also, if the rape story is true, surely she wouldn't marry someone who raped her.

    There's nothing really to confirm that it was - I just looked for a James* Pollard whose occupation was a Waiter, and that was the only one I found.
     
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  9. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Very impressive. I'm simply not as good at using the tools. I'd looked at William G E Garrard in the 1939 Register before, FMP said annoyingly "You previously viewed this record!!!!" when I clicked on him but I hadn't processed the phrase under Occupation which says "Electrician Bbc Davenant" as meaning "Electrician BBC Daventry". Maybe FMP uses Optical Recognition Software or out-sourced English-as-a-2nd-language speakers, wouldn't surprise me.

    The BBC had a huge transmitter station at Daventry it seems because of it's central position in England which opened in 1925 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p027c6h8 and shut down in 1992
    Code:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daventry_transmitting_station
    There is still a DAB digital antenna on the hill apparently and many people remember the busy days. https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Daventry/bowman1.htm#Closing Down 1992 I never met Uncle Bill but there's probably a picture of him in the BBC somewhere.

    How did you find the family in the 1901 census Jellylegs? I can't see them. I am completely stumped. Both FMP and Ancestry will not locate them EVEN if I enter the details you have given. Could you give me the archive reference? Maybe I can find them that way. Thanks for your help.
     
  10. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I found this old post regarding Weedon Bec from Second Lieutenant David Ingleby on "greatwarforum.org".

    "...Sorry for finding this so long after your post and you have probably solved your query by now! I can, however, confirm that the home of the 3rd Cadet School RFA was indeed the Northamptonshire village of Weedon Bec. A large Ordnance Depot was established there in the first decade of the C19th and wasn't closed by the Army until the 1960's. In addition to being a large supply depot, it had a permanent troop of Royal Artillery there - hence the establishment of the Cadet School there in February 1917. Its first Commandant was Major Hugh Ponsonby Burnyeat, who had been invalided home from the Western Front. He later returned to the Western Front as a Lieutenant Colonel commanding 65th Brigade RHA and was killed by a shell on October 30th 1918. In addition to the Royal Artillery presence in Weedon, there was also a rotating presence of either a battalion of infantry or squadron of cavalry based in the adjacent barracks. These have since been demolished, but the majority of the depot buildings survive (in desperate need of some TLC)..."
     
  11. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth James Pollard is still in Camberwell at the 1901 census but his wife is not present.

    James A Pollard 55 1846 Restaurant Waiter Chippenham, Wiltshire
    Priscilla M Pollard Daughter Single 26 1875 Dressmaker Pimlico
    Florence Pollard Daughter Single 24 1877 Draper's Assistant Pimlico
    William A Pollard Son Single 17 1884 Tobacco Pipe Mounter Newington

    The only death I can find for a Priscilla Pollard from 1891 to 1901 is
    POLLARD, PRISCILLA 42
    GRO Reference: 1897 M Quarter in SKIPTON Volume 09A Page 34
    but this gives a YoB as 1855 whereas the 1891 census gives her YoB as 1846, quite a difference, also a different location. Maybe she moved out?
     
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  12. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I've ordered a marriage certificate for William George Edward Garrard and Sarah Goode, 1920, Daventry, Q2. His Mum was still alive then. It'll be interesting to see if any family names appear!
     
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  13. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    FS have a Priscilla Pollard b 1846 Bloomsbury, a patient somewhere in St Saviour parish Southwark. Sorry I don't have any access to full details.
    It could poss be the St Saviour Union Infirmary now Dulwich Hospital.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  14. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    RG13/523/15/19 - or go to address, enter Deptford and Pender Street, you get 2 hits the first is the even numbers, so chose the second and they are the 3rd family in house number 13.
    FMP has the surname as Garrord
    George Edward as Gee Ed b1849
    Agnes as Agness Hgh b1853
    Charles as Charles Wal
    but they got Laura correct:D

    Well done @Jellylegs for finding them with that as the transcription:rolleyes:
     
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  15. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't find the Garrard family in 1901 either until jellylegs pointed the way.
    FS have Garrord.
    Gee Ed Garrord b Essex will lead you to them.
     
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  16. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    It took ages, but I wasn't going to be stumped! I searched the 1901 for surname GAR* born Ipswich and trawled through them page by page, looking at any likely candidates that had been mis-transcribed. Got them eventually :)
     
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  17. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Apparently, after 1875 (I think that was the year), the reputed father had to be present at registration for his name to be on the birth certificate (same applies today). However, I doubt that any proof of who they were was required, so as you say, the "informant" (who went to register the birth) could give false information. Someone must have gone with this lady and said he was the father/her husband, but who knows who it actually was.
     
  18. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I just ran all this past my cousin. He finds it very compelling and so do I. He got the back story from his Mum who was Agnes Sarah's daughter. He met Uncle Bill and his family in 1961/2. The only thing he's puzzled about is the wife's name being Sarah and not Sylvia. He said that his Mum had said that Uncle Bill was unaware that his future wife was older than him and he only found out when he saw their marriage certificate. This fits these facts too (2 years). More corroborating details may turn up. I think there's still plenty of mileage in this investigation.
     
  19. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    If you look on freebmd there are 3 possible Garrard children mmn Goode born between 1921 and 1926. I won't name them as they may still be alive. They (or their children) may have further information which might help.
     
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  20. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    According to the 1911 census Sarah Goode is probably Sarah Louise Goode who was living with her family (father John William Goode) at this time in Welton, Northants. I'll check to see if the son named in the 1939 Register is still alive.
     

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