My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Eric, I think Sarah will be the Sarah Elizabeth Goode b Daventry in 1894.
    Will see if I can spot her in 1911.
    FS have her as Sarah E in 1901 but also have a baptism as Sarah Louise in 1894. So maybe known as both.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  2. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Well that's confusing. I think they must be the same person. Her (that's S L Goode) Mother's name is Elizabeth so maybe she was Sarah Louise Elizabeth or Sarah Elizabeth Louise. The location for S L Goode is OK in the 1911 census, Welton is only a couple of miles from Daventry. The GRO definitely cannot find any other likely contenders in Daventry born from 1892-1896 apart from S E Goode, so I'd say they were the identical. This means there might be a big gap in her (and all) records between the 1911 census and the 1939 Register where she shows up again as S E Garrard.

    If she was indeed still at home in 1911 aged 16 then she would have been 19 when WW1 broke out. Jellylegs identified the 3rd Cadet School RFA at Weedon Bec which is just down the road from Daventry/Welton. There was a lot of military activity at Weedon in this period. I wonder if a hospital was also set up up there at some point. I am thinking about the part of the narrative that William G E Garrard met his future wife after being gassed/injured while she was a nurse at the hospital where he was being treated. I will see if I can locate any evidence of a hospital at Weedon or of Sarah as a Red Cross Volunteer.

    Thinking about it, I don't know why I was concerned about William & Sarah's son Ronald still being alive. He is clearly dead. The managers of the 1939 Register are extremely punctilious over matters of personal privacy, data protection etc. His record is open so they know he's dead. If there was ANY doubt his record would be closed and the only way you could get it open would be to prove to them that he was dead.

    William & Sarah may have had other children of course. But Ronald is 16 in 1939 and he's still at home, so if there had been any surviving children born between 1923 (Ronald's YoB) and 1939 then they would be under 16 and it's likely they would have been at home and would have appeared on the census too. That's a 16 year gap. Is it possible they had children after 1939? I'd say it's unlikely because Sarah was 45 in 1939. So, the point of all this arithmetic is I think that Ronald was their last child.
     
  3. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    According to page 30 of this Red Cross list

    LIST OF AUXILIARY HOSPITALS IN THE UK DURING THE FIRST WORLD WAR

    there were auxiliary hospitals at both Daventry and Lois Weedon (Officers). Lois Weedon AKA Weedon Lois is about 8 miles south of Weedon. So, it's possible that a young Sarah might have volunteered either at the auxiliary hospital in Daventry or in Weedon Lois. Maybe. And that that is where she met William G E Garrard. Maybe.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  4. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Not necessarily. My father's record is open and he is very much alive. Aged 92, living in Hampshire and still driving. :eek:
     
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  5. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Agreed Jan, I've found several people who are still alive.
     
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  6. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Excellent. Glad to hear he's still enjoying life. He could definitely get it closed if it bothered him.
     
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  7. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    From freebmd there were two possible daughters, one born 1921 Daventry, the other 1926 Daventry.
    All 3 children seem to have married and had children, so there may be descendants around. (just a guess on my part by looking at births and marriages on freebmd. I could be wrong.)
     
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  8. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I agree. St Saviour's Poor Law Union is mentioned in the Southwark section of "workhouses.org.uk".
     
  9. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    The Museums of the Order of St Johns seem to have records of the auxiliary hospital at Daventree. I've no idea if these would include patient records or not though.
     
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  10. Genie1

    Genie1 Well-Known Member

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    My mother's record was open last year when she was alive. Her marriage was incorrect though.
     
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  11. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    It took me nearly a year to get my mother's record closed again on FMP, despite repeated emails.
     
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  12. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    While I'm waiting for William and Sarah's marriage certificate to turn up I've considered Agnes Sarah's strategy for getting her illegitimate son a regular looking birth certificate. It shows great ingenuity given her very difficult circumstances. I admire her problem solving skills. I wonder if this was a standard ruse at the time for women in this position.

    It certainly makes tracing William's roots difficult for later generations because neither of his recorded parents really exist. The "Agnes Sarah Garrard, maiden name Pollard" cannot be traced and neither can "James Edward Garrard" who presumably ceased to exist the moment he left the Registrar's office.

    I think she has also minimised the likely penalty under the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1874 should she have been found out. She actually signed her REAL name but under the guise of a completely different individual. Penalties for lying under the Act were "...for each offence be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds, and on conviction on indictment to fine or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years, or to penal servitude for a term not exceeding seven years." I think she'd have just got a fine, still a large sum at the time. I think the "father"'s offence is probably greater since his details are presumably totally fake.

    I can't see any way at all to identify this helpful man. It could have been a male relative, a friend or even someone she paid. Could it have been the biological father? I can only see this if there was no rape, just some kind of accident in an affair perhaps where there was mutual agreement that they couldn't marry for some reason. I can't see an actual rapist being invited or turning up. Anyway, I doff my hat to Grandma. Very clever!
     
  13. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    RONALD WILLIAM G E Garrard died in Wellinborough, Northamptonshire in 2006 aged 83. 60C/128
     
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  14. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I think both parents had to be present to be able to record an illegitimate birth with a named father; otherwise one informant was all that was required. If she was claiming to be married, no one would have asked to see the father, unless they had some reason to disbelieve her.
     
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  15. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that. It seems to conflict with Jellylegs advice given in this post #197 The "father's" name is indeed on the birth certificate. I believe Jellylegs is saying this must have meant that he was physically present in the Registrar's office. Who knows? The Act is hard to understand on this point.
     
  16. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Hello, just my 2 pennies here. I think Jellylegs was referring to when it was an illegitimate birth, when the father had/ has to be present if he were to be mentioned on the certificate. When I registered my children as I married woman, I went alone and was able to just state who the dad was. I don't remember giving any evidence for him, but it was a long time ago!
     
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  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Me too. All born on a Friday and the registrar was in the hospital on Friday so, job done. My SIL registered the births of my 2 grandchildren at the RO and he had to take his marriage cert to prove the parents names.
     
  18. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy to have a friendly debate about what the 1874 Act actually required. As far as I can see the relevant parts were not amended between it's enactment and September 1896 when Agnes Sarah registered William's birth, so this is the law that applies. It's remarkably brief and there seems to be general agreement that it's main purpose was to shift the duty to register from the Registrar to the parents and to introduce punishments for non-compliance.

    It's here and is probably worth reading. I think the only Paragraph that applies to this registration is Paragraph 1. It's not necessary to consider the case where the child is illegitimate because that's exactly what Agnes Sarah was avoiding. She was registering a "normal" birth and was presenting the facts, people and circumstances to get William a "normal" birth certificate.

    There are later Paragraphs (2 & 5) which deal with late or delayed registrations and require that these should be referred "up" from the Registrar and Sub-District to the Superintendent Registrar at District level and eventually to the Registrar General. These aren't relevant either since Agnes Sarah was presenting this as within the 6 week limit. Whether it really was or not is anyone's guess.

    Looking at what Paragraph 1 says - "In the case of every child born alive after the commencement of this Act, it shall be the duty of the father and mother of the child [...the omitted clause here is about who can stand in place of the parents...] to give to the registrar, within forty-two days next after such birth, information of the particulars required to be registered concerning such birth, and in the presence of the registrar to sign the register.

    There's no leeway here. The 1874 Act, which has been repeatedly amended since, required both parents to be there and to sign. If the father wasn't there then that box was left blank, married or not. That's the clear implication. How this was applied to fathers who were too sick to attend or were off fighting for their country I don't know. There may be some special dispensation in separate military legislation. It's clear that the Registrar could do his work elsewhere than in his office. It was his presence that made it official, which implies that he could do home visits. So, it's my contention that Agnes Sarah had no choice but get a "father" to stand in in order to comply with the 1874 Act and look normal.

    Paragraph 1 doesn't mention marriage at all. It is quite secular. Paragraph 7 says that a father of a child born out of wedlock could sign his name on the register as long as he was physically present and both parents agreed he was the father. This is more secular thinking. It means that there is no way to tell from a birth certificate (under this Act) signed by both parents whether or not they were married. None. You'd have to look for a separate marriage certificate. Agnes Sarah wanted to avoid ANY uncertainty so she carefully included a fictitious maiden name "Pollard" signalling that a marriage had occured. Very clever Grandma.
     
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  19. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Jellylegs it's taken me a while to catch up with you on this post but thanks to some very helpful people on greatwarforum.org I agree 100%. I don't know how you do it but you are correct. You definitely (in my opinion) found Uncle Bill's war records. It all adds up nicely.

    His "Silver Badge" record is in the National Archives in the catalogue "Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery (Charlton and Woolwich)" and his real Silver Badge is presumably with one of his descendants. "Charlton and Woolwich" suggests he was not far from his Mum and her family when he enlisted on 29/10/1915 aged 19. No.3 OCS RFA is indeed the No.3 Officer Cadet School (Royal Field Artillery) which was in Weedon which is about 3 miles from Daventry.

    So, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that he met Sarah Goode while he was based at his discharge unit No.3 O.C.S.-R.F.A. He did indeed serve overseas and his Silver Badge record simply says he was discharged because of "Sickness". His regimental number was, as you say, 931,134. Next time I lose my keys again I'll get in touch. :)
     
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  20. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed I "found" Uncle Bill's Medal Index Card in an earlier post here #88 without knowing it. It's the last of the three. This has both his Regimental numbers on it 2401 and 931134. Laugh? No, not really.
     
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