My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    These names Garrard, Minter and the first names seem to be common at the time. I'd convinced myself they were unusual but this isn't the case it seems. I am 99% certain that the certificate below is for Grandma, everything fits, all the names are right and the place is right.
    upload_2019-10-7_9-6-33.png
     
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  2. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    On the 1901 in Farlington Hampshire, St Andrews Farlington are two charity children. William Garrard age 12 and Florence Garrard age 9. Both were born Camberwell London. CHARITY CHILDREN FROM CAMBERWELL. They are living with the Manus family sub district Havant. In 1911 William Garrard birth year 1889 Camberwell is in 2nd Battalion Kings Shropshire Light Infantry, Trimulgherr, Pradash India. I'm assuming this is the same William living as a charity child in 1901.
     
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  3. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    It's the right kind of date for the part of the narrative that he married his nurse having been gassed in WW1. It's also in his Mother's part of the world being about 15 miles from where she was born and 15 miles from where his Granddad was born. But the Register for 1916 Q2 says her first name was Ethel not Sylvia/Silvia. However it doesn't give her second name, if she had one. I'll see if I can find her.
    upload_2019-10-7_9-38-15.png
     
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  4. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. Good sleuthing! OK I've got that. In 1889 Agnes Sarah would have been 15.
    upload_2019-10-7_10-11-28.png
    Camberwell is only 3 miles from Deptford where Agnes Sarah was working in the household of John W Dear in 1891. The fact that these children are together and have the same surname suggests they were brother and sister. This doesn't fit the narrative that she had 1 illegitimate child as a result of rape. How would one explain 2 illegitimate children?
     
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  5. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I looked but I can't see that this Ethel had a second name or ever used the names Ethel Sylvia.
     
  6. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Some go by a name they like rather than the one they were given :rolleyes:
     
  7. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    This is a larger section from the register of births for Q3 1893. As you can see some Bridges have 1 first name name entered and some have 2. She has 1 name. I don't think she was given a second name.
    upload_2019-10-7_14-10-40.png
     
  8. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    If I am correct, the Winifred Mary Bridges who married William Minter in 1916 was baptised in 1892 with parents Thomas Edwin Bridges and Sylvia. Name Sylvia could be just a coincidence though. Winifred said to be born about 1886 but I haven't spotted her birth details yet.
     
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  9. dizzyme

    dizzyme Well-Known Member

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    I have several ancestors whose births were registered with one name but on later documents they have given themselves a middle name!
     
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  10. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Perhaps there was another one, that the family didn't know about? Certainly with my grandma there were at least two extra siblings that no one knew existed and another one unproven as no birth certificate... because illegitimacy and workhouses carried real stigma, they weren't ever spoken about.

    Yes - I have a few of those, or sometimes a communion name.

    Those two 'charity' children above appear to have been boarded out, as my grandma was. The family would have received payment for taking care of these children, on the understanding that they were kept clean and well-clothed, and brought up with good manners. Poor Law Union officials would make regular checks on the household.

    Trying to keep up with this thread as it interests me, but struggling as fighting off a virus (my head is like mush). The one thing worth bearing in mind is that in situations likely to cause embarrassment or stigma, people did lie to save face... oh, they lied like mad. :oops: So don't necessarily exclude something which doesn't seem to 'fit'.
     
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  11. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    This William Minter prob son of a Robert Minter and Elizabeth and in Croydon in 1901 and 1911 with parents, so not your William Garrard.
     
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  12. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    It’s looking to me and I hope I’m not alone, that William Garrard, charity child and soldier in India is a possibilty.
     
  13. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    No problem. I can believe that. But there is zero evidence that Ethel Bridges ever used "Sylvia" as any part of her name. Nothing. I'm not able to convince myself that she is Sylvia just to solve the problem. I'll have to see something somewhere that back's it up. I'm not being negative, I appreciate everybody's efforts, a lot.

    On William Garrard from the Camberwell workhouse, his date of birth is given as 1889. If I run this name and DoB through the Births database at the General Register Office I get 2 possibilities -
    upload_2019-10-8_0-33-49.jpeg
    The first one looks wrong geographically. It's too far from Camberwell. There would have been a nearer workhouse. The second one looks like it might be the Camberwell workhouse William but the Mother has the wrong maiden name, Mercer rather than Garrard.

    If I run his sister's name and date of birth (Florence Garrard, b 1892) through the GRO Births database I get this -
    upload_2019-10-8_0-35-35.jpeg
    So, these are 2 children from the same mother with the maiden name Mercer.

    Is it possible to identify their Mother, maiden name Mercer? Yes it is. If I go to Findmypast and search for a marriage between a "Mercer" and a "Garrard" with no other fields filled in the I only get 2 results -
    upload_2019-10-8_0-24-38.jpeg
    The second result is a male and cannot be her. The first result looks extremely promising. This marriage took place the year workhouse William was born. If I click on it I get -
    upload_2019-10-8_0-32-26.jpeg
    So that's it. William and Florence are brother and sister and are the children of Elizabeth Mercer and William Garrad who married in West Ham in 1889. This isn't the William that is the illegitimate son of Agnes Sarah .
     
  14. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Back to :headbang:
     
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  15. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Ah well. :headbang:
     
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  16. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Been out of the loop for the last few days (Nanna Duties) but have managed to read what has been added.

    2 thoughts - does your cousin, who saw Sylvia and William in the 1960 have any idea where they lived at that time?

    Secondly, if the story is correct and Sylvia was William's nurse, could she have been French perhaps? and they have married in France which is why we cannot find anything that looks like a marriage for them.

    Oh, Agnes's sister did have a son William but he is with her and her family in 1911 and seems to have died in WW1 (I looked that up a few days ago).
     
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  17. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I'm pursuing an idea that maybe "William" was looked after by one of Agnes Sarah's older siblings for a while. This assumes great generosity on their part of course since none of them seem to be well off. If this period crossed a census then he'd show up in an unexplained manner as a household member.

    I started with Catherine Gertrude M Garrard (b1868, Ipswich, Suffolk). She married William Potter (b 1867) in Q1 1891 (at this time Agnes Sarah would have been 17) . They show up as a childless couple in the 1891 census living in Ipswich at 29 Priory Street. In 1901 (by which time Agnes Sarah would be 27) they show up living at 9 Priory Street with 3 children, Dora 9, William 8 and Gladys 6. This William checks out though, if I run his name and DoB 1893 through the GRO database he has a birth certificate and mother's maiden name is given as "Garrod", which is close enough to Garrard. This doesn't prove he wasn't Agnes Sarah's child but there's really no reason to think he was. I don't think this sibling marriage is worth pursuing further since Agnes Sarah got married to Robert in 1902 and the story is that he ("Wiiliam") was being looked after by them at that time.

    The next oldest sibling is William E Garrard (b 1869, Ipswich Sufflok). I cannot find his marriage details. By 1891 he had left home because he's not on the 1891 census for Agnes's parents which George Edward completed after they had moved to Deptford. He is on their 1881 census. So at some point in those 10 years he moved out, either to get married or to work. Someone called William E Garrard, aged 23 (not 22) shows up on the 1891 census of Edward Hunt, Temperley Road, Clapham described as a boarder, working as a gardener/domestic servant. The place of birth for this person is given as Wickham Skieth, a tiny place, about 20 miles north of Ipswich. I don't think it's him. Can anyone find William E Garrard b 1869 Ipswich Suffolk after 1881? I can't trace him or find a marriage. Thanks for any assistance.
     
  18. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I'll certainly pass on these questions. If William simply took another surname, anything really, Hetherington for example, it would make finding the marriage more or less impossible. If I search for any William (DoB 1895 +/-5) marrying any Sylvia anywhere then Findmypast returns 5,700 possibilities. Too many to do anything with.
     
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  19. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    No luck in 1891, but there is this one in 1901
    RG13/4636/146/1 - in Hartlepool, ship's crew
    a single Petty Officer age 33 born Stoke Ipswich Suffolk
     
  20. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    1911 census RG14 PN10831 SN296 - Stanley Avenue Ipswich

    This could be a candidate for the William in 1901
    William, working as an electric Crane Driver married just 3 years, aged 41 with a 29 year old wife Alma, 2 year old son William and mother in law Elizabeth Hammond.

    Dec qtr 1908 William Edward Garrard married Alma Elizabeth M Hammond
    Ispwich 4a 2050
     

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