My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    This is what my cousin wrote earlier. "Nan" is Agnes Sarah Garrard, "Grand Dad" is Robert Minter -

    "...From what I was told Nan when a young woman worked at the local Manor House, was raped and became pregnant. At some point Nan and Bill came to London where Nan met Grand Dad. I think only [Agnes Sarah's 3 oldest chidren] remembered growing up with Bill. As he was so much older he had already left home when [the younger children] were born. Bill fought in WW1, was badly gassed and sent back to a hospital in England where he eventually married one of his nurses, Sylvia. I think they had one child, a daughter. I remember Bill, Sylvia, their daughter and son in law visiting a few times when I was about 11 or 12 [this would have been 1961/2]. I have always assumed he was known as Bill Minter. I think he worked for the BBC..."

    There is a searchable Minter's web site here -
    http://www.theminters.co.uk/

    People mentioned Robert Minter's attestation papers earlier. Is it possible that they visited the recuiting office together? This would mean that William Minter's papers would have the same date, maybe be signed by the same officer. I'm not familiar with military records. Just a thought.
     
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  2. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Cut and pasted from "The Minters" web site regarding Agnes Sarah's husband (who could be seen as William's step-father) -

    "...Robert joined the Royal Engineers on 10 December 1915, aged 34 years 45 days, a general labourer of 32 East Street, Charlton, London. His next of kin was Agnes Sarah Minter of the same address and 5 children were listed. Unfortunately this page is very faint and it's only possible just to make out the first, Robert Charles, the 5th, Frank ---, and the 6th, Elsie ---. The names and dates of the other 2 children remain to be established. Robert's service number was 342283 and he was a Private, eventually transferred to the Z Reserve on 24 January 1919. The record doesn't show what Robert did during the war.
    Before joining up he worked for White, Palmer & Co, Warspite Wharf, Woolwich as a labourer..."

    Did a "William Minter" sign up on the same day I wonder?
     
  3. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    As an addendum to my post #24 another child besides 'Albert Edward Sydney' died. 'Charles George' born 1913 died in 1915 aged 2 years.

    Name: Charles George Minter
    Burial or Cremation Date: 1st September 1915, Greenwich, London
     
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  4. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Very well spotted. This child's birth/death is also recorded on The Minters web site here -
    http://www.theminters.co.uk/getperson.php?personID=I544&tree=whitstable
     
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  5. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-10-8_22-40-54.png

    I wonder if this could be William?
     
  6. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    It could be. There's no shortage of W Garrards in the records from WW1. The problem is that there are too many rather than not enough. Which database did you use to get this match?
     
  7. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    From The Genealogist - another subscription site.
     
  8. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Here's a few more William Garrards from the Medal Index Card list kept at the National Archives. There are too many, and very little info on each medal card. These don't really help to identify him.
    upload_2019-10-9_13-7-28.jpeg
     
  9. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Update just received from my cousin regarding William's wife. "...Sylvia was British. The Hospital was in England. Pretty sure they lived in Hertfordshire. Maybe the army Hospital was in Herts and they stayed in the area after their marriage..."
     
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  10. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    I am puzzled by how few Williams married Sylvias in the years immediately following WW1. Maybe Sylvia was an unpopular name.
     
  11. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Looking at possible children for this William and Ethel, there is a Sylvia M Garrard b 1926, mother's maiden name Bridges. Not Hertfordshire, but Hartismere reg district in Suffolk. Probably just another coincidence, but is it at all possible that your cousin could have mixed up names or locations?
     
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  12. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    I see what you're saying, that maybe it was the daughter that was called Sylvia and not the Mother and that the place they lived was "Hartismere" rather than "Hertfordshire" - they sound similar. If I look at the 1939 Register for this William and his wife Ethel they are there living at Red House Cottages, Stoadbroke, Hartismere
    Ref: RG101/6646I/004/2

    There are problems with this. For example, William's DoB is given as 06/09/1907. This is much too late. The William I'm looking for was born before his Mother married in 1902, probably well before since he was old enough to fight in WW1. This can't be him.
     
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  13. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Oh sorry have probably got a bit mixed up . But I think I was looking at a different Ethel in 1939. With a Bertha E born 1916 but poss not William. I can't view the actual records tho so could be wrong one. In Gipping, Suffolk. I had thought that that William and Ethel had married in 1916 and saw the name Sylvia...... Other poss children were Catherine, Maurice and Cynthia.
    Your Sylvia is very elusive!
     
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  14. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Although, don't take the 1939 Register birth dates as proof. I've had two incorrect birth years already today. :sceptical:
     
  15. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    I certainly agree there can be discrepancies. But this William is also identified in the GRO - the name, year of birth and location all match. He's too young unfortunately.
    upload_2019-10-10_12-42-3.jpeg
     
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  16. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Hmm, something a bit peculiar just dawned on me. Looking at Agnes Sarah's parents there seems to be a missing census year for them.

    In 1871 her parents are in Spray St in Woolwich with their 2 eldest chidren, Agnes Sarah not yet born.

    In 1881 the family has moved to Ipswich and now has 6 children including Agnes Sarah aged 6.

    In 1891 Agnes Sarah is a servant in the household of John W Dear in Deptford while the family are also living in Deptford (now with the youngest daughter Alice M Garrard b 1885). They've moved back to London it seems. Her oldest sister Catherine married William Potter this year and is still living in Ipswich.

    In 1901 Agnes Sarah appears to be working as a servant at the Star and Garter in old Woolwich Rd, surname spelled Garrett and age out by +1. She'll get married next year to Robert Minter. However I cannot find her parents, at all.

    In 1911 Agnes Sarah has been married for 9 years and is living in Deptford with 4 children. The remains of her family seem to be living at 24 Harden Street, Woolwich, father aged 69 and her mother having died apparently.

    Maybe I'm missing something obvious. Can anyone locate her parents in 1901? It would be much appreciated. This is their census for 1891 -
    RG12, Piece 494, folio 167, page 56

    And this is their census for 1911 -
    RG14PN2870 RG78PN98 RD30 SD2 ED13 SN160

    So what happened to them all in 1901? I'm not convinced the 1911 group is actually the same family. The patriarch's YoB is a full 5 years out and Charles' birthplace has changed form Essex to Plumstead. I can't find a record of her Mother's death either. Anyone got experience of people vanishing off the census?
     
  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    There is a death Reg for Hannah Agnes in Woolwich in 1908
    upload_2019-10-10_14-45-32.png
     
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  18. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Please could all contributors to this thread please read rule number 8 here.

    Thank you.
     
  19. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    No luck with finding them in 1901 but it seem like Alice ended up in an Bexley asylum/hospital
    admitted 3/6/1910 and died 12/3/1919

    Source Ancestry Lunacy Patients Admissions Registers 1846-1912
     
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  20. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Member

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    Yes I saw that. I suppose it must be her although this puts her year of birth a full 10 years later than the censuses in 1871 and 1881. According to those figures she would have been 61 when she died, not 51. Also, she would still have been alive in 1901 when the census seems to miss her and most of her family for some reason. On the plus side Agnes Hannah or Hannah Agnes doesn't appear to have a birth certificate, so who's to say when she was born.

    I wonder if something BIG happened to the family (without Agnes Sarah) in 1901 when they're missing from the census. Or maybe it was just a bureaucratic glitch.
     
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