My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    This may help, it may not.
    A Hannah Hawes birth was registered in 1847 Hartismere 13 447
    A Hannah Hawes is married to a possible George Garrard Dec 1867 Hartismere 4a 1177. This would make her 61 at death.
     
  2. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Well that's very sad. Agnes Hannah's daughters don't seem to have had much luck. One gets raped, another goes barmy. I can find a birth certificate for Alice Martha Garrad from 1893 which has the correct mother's maiden name -
    upload_2019-10-11_11-22-2.jpeg
    but I cannot find a death certificate for 1919, which is strange because you'd think an institution would be required to go through the legal procedures.
     
  3. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    OK, I've got it now. Her surname was spelled with one R.
    upload_2019-10-11_11-40-11.jpeg
     
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  4. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Alice Martha Garrard also seems to appear in the 1911 census return from the Bexley asylum in the year following her admission in 1910. Patients are recorded with initials only. She is "A M G - Single - Age 25 (more like 28) - Birth place: Ipswich Suffolk - Occupation: Parlourmaid Private Domestic"
    RG14PN3791 RD43 SD3 ED31 SN9999
    Right, back to looking for William.
     
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  5. LianeH

    LianeH Well-Known Member

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    Will check my family files as our family name is Hawes and all from the Hartismere area and I think we gave some Hannahs somewhere, might take me a couple if days as we have a friend visiting for the weekend
     
  6. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    While I was looking for the Garrard family who seem to be missing from the 1901 census I came across Alice Martha Garrard again. So, in 1901, aged 18, she was a patient in an asylum in rural Watford in Hertfordshire. I cannot see the name. It may just be " The Watford Rural Institution". The record describes her as "Alice Garrard - Single - Age 19 (actually 18) - Birth year 1882 (out by -1) - Birth place : given as St George in the East - Occupation: Not known". The diagnosis column simply says "Imbecile". This was a technical term and not an insult. It meant someone with an IQ of 25-50.

    The birth place given as "St George in the East" is very interesting. This institution was a combined workhouse and infirmary in the area of Wapping in East London. It's mentioned in Jack London's book "The People of the Abyss". It sounds grim. The reference simply means that she was transferred from St George in the East to the place in rural Watford, probably an improvement.

    This means she spent the last half of her life in institutions probably, first St George in the East, then the place in Watford, then the asylum in Bexley, Dartford, where she died.

    Archive reference RG13, Piece number 1322, Folio 171, Page 13
     
  7. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    It was Leavesden Hospital. :)

    More information about the place can be found here:
    Code:
    http://www.leavesdenhospital.org/
     
  8. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that. It sounds like a decent place.
     
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  9. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking the trouble.
     
  10. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Sad to hear about Alice, Eric.

    The William found in 1911 with Uncle Charles etc could well be your William.
    Charles Walter was born Woolwich reg dist (which includes Plumstead) 1871, mmn Dowsing.
    Married in mar Q 1901 to Laura Byles (poss the widow of John William Byles). I can't find Laura or William in 1901 census. A possible Laura Garrard died 1910 Greenwich. If it is her, it would fit with Charles being a widow in 1911 and making it possible this is your family group.
    The 'other' William b 1897 Ipswich who is with his family in 1901 is not with his mother in 1911. However he would need to be related to your Charles in some way to be the 'nephew' in the 1911 group.
    As you have already said, it would be good to find your family group in 1901, and maybe William is with them.
     
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  11. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm trying to pin them down one at a time. It looks like most of Agnes Sarah's siblings had left home by 1901 when she was working at the Star and Garter at 60 Old Woolwich Road recorded as Agnes Garrett.

    I discovered that her Mother Agnes Hannah had had another child that didn't survive in 1874, possibly died at birth, never reached 1. This was Arthur George -
    george arthur death.png
    george arthur death.png

    This means Agnes Hannah gave birth 8 times, that I have been able to identify. Although this isn't exceptional for the time you'd have to be fit and healthy or it would take a toll. I think 3 kids is a good number, it's above replacement level. Such considerations played no part I guess.
     
  12. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    Sorry that was 2 death certs. Trying again.
    upload_2019-10-12_22-44-38.jpeg upload_2019-10-12_22-44-56.jpeg
     
  13. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    George was somewhere between 4 and 7 months old when he died. His birth was registered in the Apr-May-June quarter of 1874, he was buried in the middle of October.

    From the NBI (National Burial Index)

    George Arthur Garrard
    Age: 0
    Birth year: 1874
    Death year: 1874
    Burial date: 17th October 1874, St Pancras, Ipswich, Suffolk
    Denomination: Roman Catholic
    Burial: Cemetery

    St Pancras, Catholic church doesn't have a burial ground of its own, so George was buried in the Cemetery which is about a mile north-east of St Pancras Church.
     
  14. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed that the marriage certificate for Sarah Agnes Garrard and Robert Minter #17 is counter-signed by 2 witnesses, one is George Garrard who could be Agnes Sarah's Brother or Father and the other is Alice Martha Garrard her youngest sibling who spent the last half of her life in asylums. She would have been 19.

    The 1901 census the year before the wedding places Alice Martha in the asylum at Leavesden a long way from Woolwich. So I guess she had either been discharged for a while, or she had been given leave to attend (someone would have had to escort her I imagine). It's nice that she was able to go to her big sister's wedding.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  15. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    I see what you mean about this Charles Walter Garrard, very likely he is Sarah Agnes's brother. The surname, MMN and family location at birth all match for that year. He doesn't appear on the 1871 census because he was born after it.

    I've just noticed a clash in the birth dates of George Arthur Garrard and Agnes Sarah Garrard. They are both born in the J Quarter of 1874, so he cannot be a sibling. He must be the child of another Dowsing in Ipswich. There are plenty of them.
     
  16. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Belay that thought.

    If you look at the birth registrations for them both you will see they are the same.

    GARRARD, GEORGE ARTHUR
    DOWSING
    GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in IPSWICH Volume 04A Page 651

    GARRARD, AGNES SARAH
    DOWSING
    GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in IPSWICH Volume 04A Page 651

    garrard.jpg
    Twins
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  17. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    :)
     
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  18. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

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    OK. You've lost me. I see that they both quote the same registration "volume" and "page" but wouldn't you expect that if these events occurred in the same place in the same quarter. Maybe the registrar recorded them on the same bit of paper.

    Are you suggesting they were dizygotic twins? That Agnes survived the birth and George Arthur faded out a few months later?
     
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  19. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    According to the 1881 census, their parents were George E and Agnes H GARRARD.

    George E GARRARD and Agnes H DOWSING wed in the September quarter of 1866, Ipswich, volume 4a, page 894.
    Just to confuse matters, that 1881 census also has their ages as Agnes being 6 and George being 5... :confused:

    RG11, piece 1870, folio 103, page 40
     
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  20. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Yes I'm suggesting that they were twins. Each registration has it's own page No.
    Yes that would be correct. The first George Arthur died in October 1874 (the year he was born) They had another son in 1876

    GARRARD, GEORGE EDGAR
    DOWSING
    GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in IPSWICH Volume 04A Page 668

    This would be the one that shows on the 1881 census.
     
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