My Grandma's illegitimate child

Discussion in 'Illegitimacy' started by eric kingsley, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    Location:
    Maidstone, Kent
    I would say not, as I am sure he was killed in 1917 (WW1).

    Commonwealth War Graves Commission record gives father and mother as William and Maude E Garrard.
     
    eric kingsley likes this.
  2. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    Location:
    Maidstone, Kent
    William Arthur GARRARD (1901 Hoxne) appears to be the son of William Charles GARRARD and Florence Agneta CRACKNELL who married in the March quarter of 1901 in Ipswich.
     
  3. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    Location:
    Maidstone, Kent
    Sorry, think I am getting myself in a muddle.

    I think it was Frederick William whose parents were William Charles and Florence Agneta.

    Off to look for William Arthur.
     
  4. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    A naïve question. How did William Garth B Garrard acquire the same surname as his mother? Is this just an error in the GRO and that the MMN was something else? I agree that he was killed in WW1.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  5. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    Location:
    Maidstone, Kent
    His father married someone with the same surname - it happens.
     
  6. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Fair enough. I think it would put me off.
    I'm going to try the same approach, looking for all Garrards born between 1885 (Agnes Sarah aged 11) and 1902 (Agnes Sarah marries). So, I'll download the GRO birth registrations with ANY 1st name/2nd name with or without "William" and look for births over this time period where the MMN is Garrard or Blank, particularly those in Ipswich or London where I know Agnes Sarah lived. There seem to be about 310 Garrard births over this 18 year period. I'll report back.
     
    Jellylegs and Chimp like this.
  7. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Out of the total there seem to be 19 Garrards that the GRO shows with MMN as Garrard or blank. A few of these 19 have already been dealt with as indicated and a couple are just strange, no first name and MMN "Francis". Any suggestions gratefully received -

    GARRARD, ERNEST EDWARD MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 04B Page 239
    *Depwade doesn't seem to exist any more. It might have been Long Stratton just south of Norwich. Ahh.. workhouse
    Code:
    http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Depwade/
    GARRARD, FRANCIS THOMAS FREDERICK MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 31

    GARRARD, HERBERT MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in BOSMERE Volume 04A Page 790
    *
    Code:
    http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Bosmere/ 
    ??

    GARRARD, ALFRED MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in ST CLARE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 289

    GARRARD, ALFRED MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 69

    GARRARD, GEORGE GILBERT CROWTHER MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 35

    GARRARD, THOMAS KEITH MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1892 D Quarter in BATTLE Volume 02B Page 51
    *Battle is a bit of a hike from London, just inland from Hastings (of course).

    GARRARD, WILLIAM GARTH BLACKELL MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in EPSOM Volume 02A Page 22
    *Already kindly identified by Jellylegs. Killed in WW1.

    GARRARD, JOHN EDWARD MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 346

    GARRARD, THOMAS ALBERT MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1893 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 751

    GARRARD, - MMN FRANCIS
    GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in TENDRING Volume 04A Page 580
    *Strange. Why no first name? There was a workhouse in Tendring
    Code:
    http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Tendring/
    GARRARD, FREDERICK BLAKE MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1894 S Quarter in HASTINGS Volume 02B Page 43

    GARRARD, FRANK MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1895 S Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 115

    GARRARD, MAURICE HOUGHTON MMN GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1896 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 146

    GARRARD, CHARLES FREDERICK MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 04A Page 656

    GARRARD, WILLIAM HENRY TAYLOR MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1897 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 103
    *Already kindly identified by Jellylegs as dying in the following year.

    GARRARD, - MMN FRANCIS
    GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in TENDRING Volume 04A Page 692
    *Strange. Why no first name, again? There was a workhouse in Tendring
    Code:
    http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Tendring/
    GARRARD, JESSE RODNEY MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in HARTISMERE Volume 04A Page 901

    GARRARD, JOHN MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1017
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,583
    Likes Received:
    11,809
    Location:
    Middlesex
    There is a corresponding death, of a male child so I guess the mite did not live long enough to be named/baptised
    upload_2019-10-21_8-10-46.png
     
    Jellylegs likes this.
  9. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    20,498
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    This could be the babe that was buried on 24th January 1899 and had lived just 6 hours. Buried at Dovercourt, near Harwich, the child of Alfred and Mary A GARRARD of 32 Victoria Street.
     
    MollyMay likes this.
  10. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Ahh I see. Sad. So, it looks like this couple had children in 1894/9 who did not survive long enough to be named.

    GARRARD, - MMN FRANCIS
    GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in TENDRING Volume 04A Page 580

    GARRARD, - MMN FRANCIS
    GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in TENDRING Volume 04A Page 692
     
    MollyMay likes this.
  11. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,583
    Likes Received:
    11,809
    Location:
    Middlesex
    Eric, I would suggest you now try and see if any of the births that you have found, died within a few years, you could then eliminate those.
     
    Jellylegs likes this.
  12. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Could be that this child died the following year, although that would give an age of 1 not 0.
    GARRARD, ALFRED 0
    GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in ST OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 225
     
  13. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    20,498
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    No, the child would be less than one year old, if they are the same one:
    Birth registered in the December quarter of 1891 and the death in the next quarter - that of March 1892.
     
  14. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Ah yes I see. I'll have a look at a few more.
     
    Daft Bat likes this.
  15. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Looks like these children died at or shortly after birth -

    BIRTH
    GARRARD, ALFRED GARRARD
    GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in ST CLARE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 289

    DEATH
    GARRARD, ALFRED 0
    GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in ST OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 225

    BIRTH
    GARRARD, ALFRED -
    GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 69

    DEATH
    GARRARD, ALFRED 0
    GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 77
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
    MollyMay likes this.
  16. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    These 2 also seem to have died in infancy -

    BIRTH
    GARRARD, JOHN EDWARD -
    GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 346

    DEATH
    GARRARD, JOHN EDWARD 0
    GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 211

    BIRTH
    GARRARD, JOHN -
    GRO Reference: 1901 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1017

    DEATH
    GARRARD, JOHN 0
    GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 575
     
    MollyMay likes this.
  17. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    While I was scanning the last list of Garrards two birth certs that I'd ordered earlier from the GRO turned up. These are the certs I mentioned here
    #137 They were of interest because these Williams have the right YoB to be the "William the nephew" mentioned as present in the 1911 census completed by Agnes Sarah's (widower) brother Charles while he was living with her (widower) father.

    GARRARD, WILLIAM EDWARD POTTER
    GRO Reference: 1896 S Quarter in IPSWICH Volume 04A Page 877
    GARRARD,
    WILLIAM GEORGE EDWARD POLLARD
    GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in IPSWICH Volume 04A Page 915


    The MMN POTTER William is the son of Amy Louisa Potter and William Ephraim Garrard as expected. So, this could be "William, the nephew" if there is a blood relationship between Charles Garrard from 1911 and William Ephraim Garrard which allows Charles to use the term "nephew" in a loose sense.

    The other cert is more interesting. Please have a look. Mother's surname is given as formerly Pollard but her "signature" has been corrected from Stannard to Garrard. There is also what looks like a note in the right hand margin possibly written by the Registrar but I cannot read it. It looks like "one f.e.w." possibly, but it's hard to read, and could easily be irrelevant. Mother's forenames are given as Agnes Sarah, same as Agnes Sarah Garrard (Grandma) but this could of course be a coincidence. I looked for this couple in the 1901 census 5 years later and could not find them. I looked for a birth of a female called Agnes Sarah Pollard from 1866 onwards and could not find one, however there are plenty of Agnes Pollards.

    Your opinions would be appreciated.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
    Grizel likes this.
  18. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    2,785
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    What you see here is the standard way of correcting a register entry. The amendment is made in the appropriate place and numbered, then the same number is written in words in the margin, and initialled - in this case by "F.C.W." (I think).

    As this is from a pdf from the GRO it will be taken from a quarterly return of births rather than an actual register, meaning that there are two points at which the error/correction could have occurred.

    If Stannard was in the original register and then corrected, this is how the return should be completed. I haven't been following this thread in detail, so don't know if Stannard was a name that was ever used.

    However, it could also be that whoever filled out the quarterly return mistranscribed the signature, and when the mistake was noticed, rather than copy out the whole form again they did a correction on the return only.
     
    Grizel, Jellylegs, Chimp and 3 others like this.
  19. eric kingsley

    eric kingsley Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    291
    Location:
    London
    Very helpful. Thanks.
     
    arthurk likes this.
  20. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    Location:
    Maidstone, Kent
    Ok, when searching, I kept going back to a chap on the 1939 census that worked for the BBC - although his wife's name is not Sylvia - it is Sarah E, so I never mentioned it because you know how you get something in your mind and it kind of blinkers you.

    The chap on the 1939 census, William G E GARRARD has the same date of birth as the second certificate you posted (mother's maiden name Agnes Sarah POLLARD).

    I wonder if this really is your William, and Pollard is the surname of the father. I can't see a marriage of a James Edward GARRARD to a POLLARD, so maybe he was actually James Edward POLLARD and this was Agnes Sarah's way of naming him - or am I being fanciful?

    Off to look for a James Edward POLLARD now - hopefully one that was a waiter.
     
    eric kingsley and Grizel like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice