My other brick....

Discussion in 'Warwickshire' started by Steve, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Hi. My other wall to break down concerns my mothers grandfather. His name was Charles Bailey problem is I can't find out who his parents are and so his birth. I do have a lot on this man. I know cousin's tried looking into this over ten years ago and came to a dead end. With the online sites and new records being released regularly I thought it be easier for me..........

    Most of what I have points to a birth in 1881. I have found him in 1901 & 1911 censuses. Have his marriage cert, most of his childrens baptism's. I was also lucky in obtaining his WW1 service record, that at least wasn't destroyed. I have found an earlier Militia record to. So all in all I can trace him from around 16 years of age to his death. There's still chunks to fill in but on the whole I have a fair amount of his life. His birth and parents however is a nightmare, without being able to pinpoint these I can't take that line back any further.

    I have only one reference to parents. His marriage cert states his father as William Bailey, deceased, a Mechanical Engineer. All the records I have acquired so far have his birth around 1881 in Birmingham.

    Now for the speculation lol.
    Family rumour:
    When Charles wife Eliza died it is said he threw the children out of the home. The youngest Adelaide appears to have moved in with a Joseph and Emma Bailey and their daughter Elsie. Both Elsie and Adelaide ended up marrying brothers Stanley and Sidney Sharredd. Speaking to a decendant of the Sharredd's I've been told Elsie and Adelaide were cousin's. This gives me the possibility of Joseph Bailey b1865 , Birmingham as a relative of Charles.
    As yet I cannot link them....

    Looking at census returns one that I like for Charles parents is that of a Betsy Bailey, widow in 1891. She has a Charles of about the right age.
    Tracing her back I have found that she is Betsy Cooley of Sutton Coldfield. She married a Samuel Bailey in Wolverhampton 1857. He is off the scene by 1881 possibly died ?, because here she is seen with a William Smith.
    Now for a bit of a leap. Is it possible that when Charles married Eliza Phillips in 1900 that he just told the vicar his fathers name was William. The vicar then wrote on the cert presuming the surname to be Bailey. I am also trying to find a link between Joseph from the above story and Samuel here. Not got there yet but still looking.

    With no names of siblings, and only that one reference to a father's name I don't have a lot to help me prove a link.

    Anyone have any thoughts as to how I may be able to. I have asked the registry office if Charles name is on Betsy's death cert but they said he wasn't. I may still get it tho to see if there's someone else who may be of interest on it.

    Steve
     
  2. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    It helps to have the census references for those you have found.

    Is the 1911 address 12 Rupert Street, Aston, Birmingham - RG14PN18268 RG78PN1101 RD385 SD3 ED38 SN208?

    If it is could you give us the ref for the 1901 census find please? It just saves us time and would help us get a broader picture of Charles's life.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Class: RG13; Piece: 2871; Folio: 14; Page: 19; Charles Bailey, Eliza Bailey, Charles Bailey

    That is the one for Charles in 1911

    This one is Betsy Bailey for 1891 witha a 10 yr old Charles Bailey
    Series RG12; Piece number 2393; Folio number 54; Page 10
     
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  4. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    If the 1911 address is right then Charles & Eliza's 1901 census record is at 65 Duke Street, Aston, Warwickshire - RG13/2871/14/19.

    Charles Bailey, head, married, 20, Cycle Fitter, born Birmingham
    Eliza Bailey, wife, married, 17, Burnisher Brass Cornice Rings Pole, born Birmingham
    Charles Bailey, son, 8 months, born Birmingham.
     
  5. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Beat me! :)
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Member

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  7. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    1891 Census: 22 Potter Street, Birmingham
    RG12; Piece number 2393; Folio number 54; Page 10

    Betsey Bailey, head, widow, 52, Occasional Cook, born Sutton Coldfield, Warwickshire
    Ada Bailey, daughter, single, 17, Presser Tin (Bovril), born Bristol, Gloucestershire
    William Bailey, son, 15, Brass Founder Filer, born Birmingham, Warwickshire
    Charles Bailey, son, 10, Scholar, born Birmingham, Warwickshire
    Henry Staples, boarder, married, 55, Cooper, born Stratford-on-Avon, Warwickshire
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  8. Steve

    Steve Member

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    That's Betsy :). The best option Ive come across for Charles parents. Unfortunately looking into her as I said she marries a Samuel Bailey in 1857 and is then with a William Smith in 1881. The children in that census are named Bailey Smith ? That would mean Charles father would in all likely hood be William Smith. If thats the case I need to link my Charles to this one. I have nothing atm to do that. The only parental reference is to a William Bailey deceased by 1900 who's a Mechanical Engineer, that is what is on the marriage cert

    FYI
    Series RG11
    Piece number 3001
    Folio 88
    Page 18
     
  9. Flook

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    So this is that family in 1881:
    7 Moland Street [?], Birmingham

    William Smith, head, married, 54, Artizan(?) Fitter, born Birmingham
    Betsy Smith, wife, married, 43, born Sutton Col. Birmingham, Warwickshire
    Ada Baily Smith, daughter, 7, scholar, born Bristol
    William Baily Smith, son, 5, scholar, born Birmingham
    John Baily Smith, son, 2(months?), born Birmingham
     
  10. Flook

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    There are a couple of interesting baptisms in Bristol for Ada Bailey. Both on Family Search.

    1. Ada Bailey, baptised 5 May 1874; Bristol, Temple. Parents Samuel and Eliza Bailey.

    2. Ada Ann Bryant Bailey, baptised 10 January 1875; Bristol, St Mary Redcliffe. Parents William and Rose Bailey.
     
  11. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    There is a birth registration for an Ada Bailey Smith in the Clifton district in Q3 1873, which might suggest that Betsy and William Smith had got together by then.

    But in 1871 this could be Betsy still with Samuel Bailey (and a houseful of children aged 12, 11, 9, 8, 6, 5, 3 and 1) in Birmingham: RG 10/3123, f.97, p.40.
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Sry had a few hrs to do at work.

    Flook, yes 1881 at Moland street. Then again in Harding street 1871 as Hun has posted.
    In 1861 they are in Biddulph.
    Piece number 2612
    Folio number 76
    Page number 3

    I also have Samuel's baptism naming his father and mother as Aaron & Hannah Bailey. This bears true in the marriage translation I have from the Wolverhampton online parish pdf's. There is one for Samuel in 1857 marrying Betsy Cooley.
    The baptism is a joint one so I have the name of one of Samuels siblings. John 5 yrs younger.

    All this I feel is by the by as if I can link Betsy to Charles then William Smith would then in all likelyhood be Charles father :(

    I need to keep researching Samuel and his line tho to try and link him in some way to Joseph the father of Elsie Bailey the 'cousin'. As that may be my only way of proving who Charles Mother is then on to William Smith as a father
     
  13. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    A few thoughts . . .

    Since it looks like both Ada and William's births were registered under the surname Smith, then perhaps Charles' was too.

    Ada and William both had Bailey as a middle name in their birth registrations and on the 1881 census. There is also a Henry Bailey Smith whose birth was registered in the Birmingham district in 1878: is he connected? Did he die before 1881?

    As Charles Bailey was 10 in 1891 that gives a d.o.b. of approximately 1881: so is he the same person as the 2 month old John Baily Smith on the 1881 census? If so, the uncertainty over his name complicates the search even more. Is there any trace of John Bailey Smith after 1881?

    Perhaps the next step might be to get a birth certificate for Ada or William, to check what mother's maiden name is given, and then ask the GRO or the local registrar in Birmingham to see if they can find a Charles (or John?) Smith birth registration in 1881 +/- a year or two with that same mother's maiden name.

    Another avenue to try, if you haven't already, might be to see if there are army records for William (and Henry? and John?) in case the next-of-kin is informative.
     
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  14. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Not appearing as such on FreeBMD

    John Bailey Smith, or John B. Smith also not appearing on FreeBmd

    Deaths Mar 1881
    Smith John 0- Birmingham 6d-102
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  15. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Looking at FreeBMD.

    Ada Bailey Smith is there Q3 1873 Clifton
    William Bailey Smith also Q2 1876 Birmingham.
    Both a close match with 1881 census

    No John Bailey Smith for Q1 1881 or John Bailey in Birmingham, However there is just one John Smith Q1 1881 Birmingham? Could be the death you have found Wendy.

    Would that then mean Charles would have to have been born at the very least Q4 1881, pos Q1 1882?
    There is one Charles Smith Q4 1881 in Aston. No Charles Bailey Smith and only one Charles Bailey but with a middle name Andrew.

    Could Charles be this Charles Smith ?
     
  16. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I think the death in March will be a different John Smith as the 1881 census was taken on 3rd April.

    I've been digging away at this like mad but the lack of documentary evidence is rather frustrating. I've found a handful of the 1871 children post 1871, but not all of them. I am impressed by the burial of a William Smith, age 59, of Park Road, Aston on 28th December 1886, as this pushes all the right buttons in relation to the 1881 & 1891 censuses. It might be worth investing in a death certificate to see what it says about him. [Source: Birmingham Burials on Ancestry].

    I've done some digging around old street maps of Aston and I'm quite impressed by how close Moland Street (1881 census), Potter Street (1891 Census), Duke Street (1901 census) and Holt Street (1901 Census - Betsy Bailey RG13/2868/173/11) are together. Rupert Street (1911 census) is fairly close as well (but it's not on this map). See page 42 {figure 8} of this document> http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk...502-1/dissemination/pdf/birmingh2-28480_1.pdf
    The streets are all close to the open space/road junction called Gosta Green.

    New Bartholomew Street (Charles's 1900 marriage) is also less than a mile south of Gosta Green. [BTW George Sadler the witness to the marriage lived at 35 New Bartholomew Street - Midlands Electoral Registers on Ancestry].

    Harding Street (1871 census) is now called Moorsom Street - it's still there and again, not far from Gosta Green.


    For what it's worth, my hunch is that John Baily Smith (1881) is Charles Bailey (1891) - but goodness knows how you can prove it!
     
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  17. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Hi Flook.

    Its the addresses that have inclined me to think Betsy is the best match for Charles mother. As you say they are all in and around Gosta Green, what is now Aston Uni.

    Further to the addresses you have already found I have a couple more of interest.
    There's a record for Charles in the 'Burnt Records' WO363. His Reg No. was 3237. A search should give you the right record at Ancestry. The next of kin on the record confirms my Charles. He noted his wife Eliza, detailing the children and the marriage.
    I was hoping to get a birthdate of this but there's just an age. Well two actually. There appears to be doubles of a few pages. The Attestation page has two copies dated 6 days apart? There are two ages, one states 33y 2 ? poss months?, the other says 32y 213 must be days. ?? Another entry of interest is the previous service. You can just make out his service no of 7314. This will lead you to a Militia record in WO96.

    The Militia record doesn't give NoK pfft. There are a couple of addresses tho. Its dated Aug 1899 age given as 17y 2m.
    Current address is give as Cromwell Street. A previous address of Weaman street is also noted as he must have been in Cromwell street under a year. Cromwell street runs parallel with Rupert Street and Weanman street is alongside Snowhill, opposite St Chads. Another interesting note is marks and blemishes. Its noted he has the name Eliza and a scroll on his forarm. At 16/17 he knew Eliza for a while I'd have thought to get ink done?

    Looking into Eliza Bailey nee Phillips. She was born in 1883 in Moland Street !! The family is found in Aston road in 1891 (RG12 - 2418 - 83 - 15) again Gosta Green. Eliza is still in Aston road in 1900. The baptism of her first child is Charles James Phillips Aug 12 1900, b 28 July 1900. They married in Dec 1900. There's a note in the margin naming Charles as father.

    Im struggling with the WW1 service record. Why two quite different ages ? I wasn't sure he would lie about his age give that he has named Charles Phillips his first born. All the births and the marriage dates being correct.

    Birth dates. WO363 July 1881 and Feb 1882 WO96 Jun 1882 if my maths is correct.

    Steve
     
  18. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I'm still looking through the military records but by my reckoning the 2nd set of papers seems to say 32 years 213** days which would give a birth date of 13 March which is close to your Feb 1882. It's so odd isn't it? And I totally agree that his records seem to be quite free from any malicious distortion of dates.

    Mmmm - I'll plough on...


    ** maybe 210 but something like that anyway.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Member

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    If anything I'd have thought he may have lied on the Militia record if he was underage, but the WW1 records he's in his 30's so no need. Then why two conflicting dates just a week apart ? So frustrating not even being able to pinpoint a birth date from records like this. Why couldn't they have asked for birth dates instead of age, would've so much easier.

    Just as a side note. Not sure if this may prove to have any relevance at a later date. I was contacted thru Ancestry concerning Betsy. Betsy lived at 22 Potter street in 1891 census. 1901 & 1911 census 22 Potter street was occupied by William & Kate (Catherine) Heath, her maiden name was Bailey ? Could she prove to be related or just a big coincidence ?
     
  20. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I see that the 1901 census gives William Heath's occupation as a 'cycle polisher'. RG13/2845/46/2.
     

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