Need Help with my Manners

Discussion in 'Criminal Ancestors' started by MollyMay, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Mary Manners is the mother of 'my' Abraham and his twin William born 3/7/1808
    and baptised at St Alphage Greenwich 12/9/1813.
    The minister did not spare the details, both are entered as illegitimate
    Mary's occupation is pauper and their address of Brewhouse Yard bears testiment
    to their poverty.

    I have Abraham, through his marriage and children's birth to his drowning in 1854.

    I have never been able to find anything certain on either William or Mary.

    I did come across this death record 17/5/1821 at St George the Marytr Southwark
    with an estimated yob as 1773 it makes it a candidate for my Mary.

    Could anyone explain what the entry in the 'abode' column might mean
    Late a prisoner within the Rules of the Kings Bench upload_2018-11-25_17-25-40.png

    Thank you
     
  2. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman

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    I know that there used to be an area of Southwark into which prisoners were actually allowed to go outside the prison as long as they kept to certain defined streets. I've seen a map of this area in the past and I'll try and have a look for it again.

    Meanwhile, have you seen these?
    Code:
    http://www.exploringsouthwark.co.uk/kings-bench-prison/4593418850
    Code:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Bench_Prison
     
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  3. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman

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    There is a map on the British History site. It's not as clear as the one I was thinking of but if you find "The Obelisk" (it's where all the major roads meet) and then go up Borough Road, on the left you'll see 'State House'. The building just above that is the 'King's Bench Prison'.

    This whole map shows the extent of 'The Rules'.

    Code:
    https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol25/plate-24
     
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  4. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    To my rescue again Flook - thank you:).
    It never crossed my mind that Kings Bench could be the name of a prison, I was thinking on the lines of it being some sort of judicial court.

    Now to try and find out if this is 'my' lady:headbang:
     
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  5. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    You may have found this MM, but, if not, I found it lurking on Ancestry. There is a newspaper report which is a bit convoluted, but I have to go out shortly, so if you want to know more about that, I'll be back later :)

    King's Bench and Fleet Prison Discharge Books and Prisoner's Lists 1734-1862
    An alphabetical list of the several persons who upon the 1st day of February 1806 were and at the time of making out this list are prisoners in the custody of the Marshal of the King's Bench Prison delivered in by the said Marshal to his Majesty's Justices of the Peace in and for the County of Surrey at the General Session of the Peace held at the Session House in the Parish of Saint Mary Newington in and for the said County on Monday 25th day of August 1806. Pursuant to an Act of Parliament made and passed in the 46th year of the reign of his present Majesty King George the Third.
    Instituted an Act for the relief of certain Insolvent Debtors

    upload_2018-11-26_8-36-43.png
    upload_2018-11-26_8-24-49.png
     
  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thanks Ann - no I had not found it (I have trouble finding anything on Anc, even when I know it is there:eek:).
    Just got in and will have a further look later, but if you have anything to add, then yes please:)
     
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  7. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I didn't find it by searching Ancestry - I Googled King's Bench Prison records - and one of the 'hits' was to that set of records :rolleyes:

    If you would like to PM me your e-mail address, I'll send you a copy of the article - bit long to post here. She is referred to as Miss Manners throughout, which makes me think she was fairly well-to-do :)
     
  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Will do and thank you - mind you if she was well-to-do, she is unlikely to be my pauper, but it will make interesting reading none the less,
     
  9. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Maybe that's why she ended up a pauper - she got herself in a bit of financial bother :nailbiting:
     
  10. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    If she did, she will be the first in my family who ever had any money:D
     
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  11. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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  12. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I think I can eliminate this Mary Manners as being mine:(.
    This is my reasoning - please feel free to shoot it down in flames;).

    The report that @AnnB found refers to Miss Mary Manners and the address given is just off of Bedford Square (Tottenham Court Road area).
    It seems likely that this is the Mary whose death I found.

    My Mary baptises her twin illegitimate son in 1813, St Alphage when they were 5 years old.
    My thinking is that these baptism were to satisfy requirements for her to get parish relief.
    If she was 'of Middlesex' she would not get help in Deptford Kent, she would be returned to her home parish.
    In baptismal register in the margin the encumbent has made notes against some entries, some read poor, next to mine is upload_2018-11-28_20-36-34.png
    and I have no idea what that means - is it PN or pr (parish relief perhaps).
    The entry above has poor ? at Deptford, is the ? the same as what is entered by the twins baptism?
    upload_2018-11-28_20-37-29.png
    The image is on Anc. Sept 12th 1813 London Births & Baptisms

    There are a few weathly William Manners about, William seems to be a family name and my Mary calls one of the twins William (hardly a rare name though and I have absolutely nothing else on him other than this baptism), but why call the other Abraham? (thank goodness she did, as he was easy to find):D.
    I think this is going to be another of those mysteries, that hopefully one day something will turn up and break down the brick wall:headbang:.
     
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  13. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    I wonder why the letter 'N' is in capitals, others don't seem to be unless the name of a place.
     
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  14. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I am not sure if they are capital letters, they could be - I am at a loss:(
     
  15. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman

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    MollyMay - on 13th June 1813 in St Alphege's Baptism register there is an entry (Richard Barber) which has 'Poor Note' written in the margin.

    All we need now is to know what a 'poor note' was!!
     
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  16. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Well found Flook, I have looked at the back and front of the register to see if they had kindly included a glossary of terms - no such luck:(.
    At least we know it is PN.
     
  17. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I’ve been having a Google and found that Poor Note is believed to be a note from a poor house to pay for a baptism. This was mentioned in a link to a question on genesreunited.
     
  18. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thank you Ann that makes sense, and reinforces my thoughts that the baptisms were something to do with Mary getting some sort of parish relief, confirming her abject poverty.
     
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