oh boy do I need ideas!

Discussion in 'Essex' started by Findem, May 23, 2020.

  1. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    One of my ancestors Isaake Saward married May Griffin 4 Feb 1657 at Thaxted.

    I then found Isaackus Saward baptised 3 Oct 1630 and Isaackus Saward baptised 1 Oct 1632 at Thaxted the sons of Thome and Rebecc(h)e Saward.

    Checking out the 1632 Isaac I could not find a burial for him, nor the 1630 Isaac come to that, the only possible marriage was to Mary Griffin in 1657, so far, so good.

    Then recently came disaster, I found Isauk Soyward the son of Thomas and Rebeccah Soyward baptised 21 Aug 1648 at Thaxted, that's a 16 year gap between the 1632 Isaac and the 1648 Isaac. It has me puzzled, could all 3 Isaacs be the sons of just the one Thomas and Rebecca Saward, I suppose they could be but are they.

    I have carried out searches for a second Thomas Saward to a Rebecca marriage and found none, I searched Ancestry's EPRI, Family Search, FreeReg, also the non sub search on FMP.

    I have searched Ancestry's EPRI, Family Search, FreeReg, also the non sub search on FMP, I cannot find any other children for that couple to fill the 16 year gap. I have even tried Essex wide baptism/birth searches on Saward and the father's name and the same search with just the mother's name, nothing!

    I really would appreciate any thoughts, ideas opinions etc please, just throw anything at me, other than heavy objects :D

    Other info.
    There was another Isaac Saward baptised 29 Sep 1631 at Castle Hedingham, the son of Willyam Saward, initially I thought him a possible husband of Mary Griffin with Thaxted being none too far from Castle Hedingham, I just cant find another Isaac in the appropriate time frame.

    However, although I cant find a marriage for the Castle Hedingham Isaac I did find three daughters of Isaac Sawerd baptised at Castle Hedingham, Elizabeth the first (known) child was baptised 31 Mar 1667.

    Isaac Saward and Mary Griffin baptised their last (known) child, Isaackus 1 Oct 1668 which is after the Elizabeth baptised 31 Mar 1667 at Castle Hedingham, so they are two different families, not as I first thought the Thaxted Isaac moving to Castle Hedingham, the Castle Hedingham PRs on EPRI do not by the way have the mother's name.
    The other two children of Isaac Sawerd baptised at Castle Hedingham are, Mary 7 Feb 1668 and Hannah 24 Jul 1670.
     
  2. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    One extra piece of info, the 2 Aug 1618 Thaxted marriage entry for Thomas Saward and Rebecca Paschier stated "Thomas filius Isacchi Swrd et Alicia, Rebeccha filias Johis et Jane Paschier".
     
  3. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Thomas and Rebecca married in 1618. There is a son Thomas baptised in 1619.
    Could not the Isaac baptised in 1648 be the son of Thomas 1619 and a wife also Rebecca. Hopefully not with the name Parcher as there is another one 1686. :eek:
     
  4. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Oops, sorry. Thats Rebecca not Thomas baptised 1619. Thomas was baptised in 1625.
     
  5. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    This is no solution but adds to the info, I have found the baptism of the Thomas who married Rebecca in 1618. Thomas Sawerd son of Isaac Sawerd baptised 20 May 1593 at Thaxted , no mother's name attached to the record.

    The earliest child of Isaac Sawerd was Elizabetha baptised 19 Nov 1585 at Thaxted, I've tried all the sites I've mentioned plus non sub type search on The Genealogist to see if I could find the marriage of the Isaac Saward and Alicia mentioned in he marriage of Thomas and Rebecca, no go. Still couldn't find another Isaac born at an appropriate time frame on The Genealogist, only the four I know of came up. Methinks something is rotten in the state of Essex. :)

    I'll leave the marriage of Isaac and Alicia in limbo for now, it could be a waste of time if the 1648 Isaac is the son of the same Thomas and Rebecca Saward who baptised the other two Isaacs in 1630 and 1632.

    What an unholy mess. :headbang: :D
     
  6. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Probably nothing at all but there is a marriage of a Thomas STODDART to a Rebecca at Blackmores 16/10/1645. I guess STODDART is a bit of stretch. :confused:
     
  7. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Well Ive found these, you probably have them.
    21/8/1648 Isaack SEYWARD father Thomas mother Rebeckah
    24/2/1650 Thomas SAYWARD " " "
    31/3/1656 Jacob SAYWARD " " "
     
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  8. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Hi Sue,
    Thanks for those.

    I'll check out the Thomas Stoddart marriage, some of those PR entries from that era are so feint now that anything is possible come transcription, also not forgetting that some of the writing could have been a lot better, over watered down ink didn't help.

    As for the three Sawards you mention, yes, I have the 1648 Isaac that's the one that put a spanner in the works.

    As for the 1650 and 1656 Thomas and Jacob, no, I haven't come across those, I've had a quick look in my notes and couldn't see them, mind you I have quite a few pages of Saward material so I might have missed them in my "quick look", I'll go into the EPRI and see if I can bring them up. If one or both are the sons of the Thomas who married Rebecca then they and perhaps the 1648 must belong to another Thomas and Rebecca Saward but then again...... :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  9. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Take no notice of the time I posted my previous post, logged in just now and found I forgot to click on "Post Reply" der.

    Well I've been in the EPRI and FreeReg found Thomas and Jacob Saward, managed to find them at Thaxted, details as you posted except the 1650 Thomas on EPRI has the surname Sagward :rolleyes:. FreeReg has the month of his baptism as Jan not Feb.

    Just FYI Jacob was born 19 Mar 1655.

    I picked up another child of Thomas and Rebecca, Rebeckah Saward born 27 Nov 1658 and baptised 14 Dec 1658 at Thaxted.

    With that 1658 birth of Rebecca it means, if the same Rebecca had all the children from 1619 to 1658 she would have been having children for almost 39 years. I suspect that the 1648 to 1658 are the children of another Thomas and Rebecca Saward, any comments anyone about that theory?

    I did find a burial for a Rebecca Saward 10 Apr 1670 at Thaxted but nothing to identify which Rebecca she is, I'll be checking to see if I can find a burial for Thomas Saward the husband of Rebecca Pashier.

    If anyone is interested in stats, to find Thomas and Jacob I used Sa* for surname with no first name, Essex wide, and for birth/baptism 1646 to 1666.
    There were 858 results, 847 were baptisms and 11 burials.
    Of those 847 results, there were 16 Saward baptisms and 1 Saward burial spread over 10 different Essex parishes.
    There were 7 different Saward name variations.
     
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  10. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    I agree. Another Thomas and Rebecca marriage. I’m sure if I thought I would be procreating for that long there would have been a murder in the house.
    Is this a Quaker family?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  11. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    :D

    I haven't found anything (yet :)) to suggest Quaker links, so far anyway, anything Saward found has been C of E, where this second Thomas and Rebecca Saward marriage is to be found beats the hell out of me but I will give the PR image of the Thomas Stoddart marriage a look, just in case.

    I think we need an icon of hands in praying mode. :D
     
  12. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    I came across a google book 'A Collection of the Sufferings of the People Called Quakers' in which a Rebecca Saward was included with others (Bridge, Hayward, Ellis, Fann) for holding a meeting 'at or near Thaxted' the confiscation of goods worth 9 pound 8 shillings and 10 pence. (Essex 1669). Another in the list 'had not a bed left him, nor was he worth so much more as was thus taken away'. No wonder they packed what they had left and left for the New World.
     
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  13. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Non Parochial records have the marriage of Rebekah Saward in 1675 at Thaxted father Robert.....quite a few Sawards of Thaxted on the Records over the years. 1675 was the earliest I came across. It was only a basic search. I’m assuming the Thaxted records are Quakers as that’s where they seem to come from, to America. Lots of repeat place names from Essex in America.
     
  14. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Quite a Quaker stronghold round that area. I lived in Saffron Walden for a while and the Quaker history was very much in evidence. There are still Quaker Meeting Houses in Saffron Walden, Great Dunmow, Great Bardfield and Stansted Mountfichet. Thaxted is smack bang in the middle. :)
     
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  15. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    There are a couple of Wills held at the Essex Records Office at Chelmsford which might help you unravel the SAWARDs if you can obtain copies. One for a Thomas SAWARD of Thaxted, Husbandman, dated 1591, and the other for Thomas SAWARD sen of Thaxted, Glazier (should this be Grazier?), dated 1663. Details shown on Ancestry's UK Extracted Probate records. Just found another one for a Thomas SAWARD/SAWERDE, Yeoman, of The Bell, Thaxted dated 1588.

    Janet
     
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  16. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    No, Glazier would be correct, I read way back that one of my Sawards did some Leaded Light window work, no doubt helped by reatives on Thaxted C of E church.

    One Thomas in my Saward families, off the top of my head I think he was an ancestor sibling, had both a farm and a butcher's shop. I haven't been into Wills very much so unless the PRs mention an occupation it means there are quite a number of Ancestors who I have no idea what their occupation was.

    I would not at all be surprised if the Six Bells Thomas Saward is one of my Sawards or at least be related to them, although I suppose all the Thaxted Sawards are related.

    I have seen an article which stated the Saward name is on of a few Anglo Saxon name that have remained virtually unchanged.
     
  17. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Just fyi.

    It seems the Sawards were partial to Rebeccas, a Thomas Sawerd married Rebecca Tayler 8 Oct 1577 at Thaxted, haven't done anything about that couple yet I wanted to get the other Thomas and Rebecca sorted first.

    As the 1618 marriage entry for Thomas and Rebecca notes that his parents are Isaachi (Isaac) Swrd and Alicia, the Thomas Sawerd who married Rebecca Tayler in 1577 is likely to be a sibling of that Thomas.
     
  18. Murfomurf

    Murfomurf Well-Known Member

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    Just generally- I have a family definitely in my tree where there is a baby the year after the marriage and then no more for 26 years when the next child is born when the mother is 46 years old. I have no evidence, but going on modern day occurrences, there can be a seemingly endless series of miscarriages and then a "last ditch effort" baby arrives when the parents are getting a bit tired and relaxed! I had a partner many years ago who was born 26 years after his elder sister and people thought the sister had somehow come back from her honeymoon with a fully grown bub, having left the church slim and virginal! As the mum was 46 she was very grateful for her daughter taking baby Michael out in the pram for her! [It's OK to mention the baby's name as he is deceased].
     
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  19. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    I have families where there is a gap between children which when I can't find any others to fill that Gap I put it down to miscarriages, stillborn births or perhaps the couple moved elsewhere for a time then returned. I haven't any with a gap like yours though, at least as far as I know, :D

    I am going to have to put my Saward and associated families to bed for now, I have three marriages that I just can't find. My Saward mob have been a pain in the butt, the people who did the original PR entries haven't helped, the way the name Saward has been spelled defies description. Then of course there are the Transcriptions on Ancestry's Essex Parish Register Index (EPRI), I realise the transcribers were probably working to a time table but with some of the spellings I've seen a little common sense would have produced a better result. Having said that I am very grateful for the EPRI it's helped me no end, also being able to cross check finds with FreeReg has helped.

    Thanks to those who have helped with info and suggestions, much appreciated, I've also found it useful to try to type things out on here so other people can understand, it's been invaluable to me to get a better understanding myself, often cleared my thinking.

    Here for the Robots are the three marriages which have given me much frustration, you never know, someone who has found one or more of the marriages might pick up this post and make contact. :sceptical: :D

    Isaac, aka Isaachi, Sawerd and Alicia, aka Alicie, married pre 1585.

    John, aka Johis, Paschier and Jane, I suppose 1590ish, their daughter Rebecca married Thomas Saward 1618 at Thaxted.

    Thomas Saward and Rebecca married pre 1648, a different Thomas Saward and Rebecca to those above who married in 1618.

    Probably all at Essex but that's just a guess.
     
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