Discussion in 'Oxfordshire' started by Kirsty Catalano, Aug 14, 2014.
Here is the reference to St Michael again. This seems the more likely scenario to me. Thank you!
The details of Philip Howse' death in 1884 in Headington, still state that he was born in Coombe. Where is 'St Michael's Weslyan' located?
Philip Howse Snr married Rose Green. Philip born 1800 in Coombe ( or Stonesfield?) parents Philip Howse and Martha Griffin.
Philip Howse born 1771 England died 1848 England.
Martha Griffin born 1770 died 1843 England.
This information found via Ancestry Hint. Not sure of source.
Hi chance that Frances Howse is Philip's sister!
Whilst I can't find 'Coombe' I have found 'Combe' in Oxfordshire. As to St Michael's, not much luck there either, however the Wesleyan congregation seems to be found in New Hall Street, Headington with a new chapel replacing a temporary one in 1818.
British History on-line
That's really interesting! Any birth records for Combe? A few of Philips' children were born in Headington. Our direct ancestor Francis was born there in 1868.
I just found a reference to a Elizabeth Hedges who married a Henry Matthews. If this Henry Matthews is the brother of George Matthews, then Kate would be George's niece. ??
My guy feeling is that the Matthews family is not related in any way. I might be wrong though!! I think the John Penny avenue might be better - if only we could find a marriage record!
If Ancestry can be believed, I've been able to trace the Howse/Howes/House family to the 1500's. Many generations lived in a town called Stonesfield. The kink in the tree is confirming Philip Jnr's birth place as there are other Philip's born in the same area and the same year.
Does anyone know of a family history group located in this area? I would love to know what the family did and why they stayed for so many generations, if in fact I have the correct line.
I believe that his parents are Philip and Rose - I just need confirmation of his birth place and confirmation of his marriage/s to tie him down to the information that I have.
Thanks to all that have helped so far. It's so good to have such great support!
The Oxfordshire Family History Society might be able to help: ofhs.org.uk/
Edited to add: There is also a Stonesfield village website that you might find interesting: stonesfield.info/
Methodist baptism registers often aren't for individual chapels but for all the chapels in what was called a 'circuit'. A baptism may have been performed in a local chapel but the record may appear in a register labelled with whatever the circuit name is, which can be confusing. Combe may well have been in the Oxford Methodist circuit (I'll try to find out) . . . in which case the baptisms may have been at Combe, but been recorded in the Oxford circuit records.
You can see images of the original registers if you have a subscription to BMD Registers, or on Ancestry in their 'England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970' collection. Here's what it says in Eden's baptism:
1829 Born 26th March Baptized April 14th 1829
Eden [son of] Philip and Rose Howes, [of] East End Parish of Coombe, carpenter, [ceremony peformed by] John Fordred
(From one of the early pages in this register, there is a mention of the Methodist chapel in Oxford being in the parish of St Michael but later moving to a new chapel. This may explain why the records are labelled as being St Michael's in some places.)
Philip's baptism in 1831 is in a different format register, which gives more detail, including names of the parents of mothers of all the baptised children, quite a bonus! Philip's parents are given as 'Philip Howes of East End in the Parish of Coombe Longa in the County of Oxford Carpenter and of Rose his wife, who was the daughter of William and Elizabeth Green'
Emanuel's baptism is in a similar format and confirms the details of Rose's parents.
Re. the place name, yes good sleuthing, Archie's Mum, Combe is the same as Coombe, also sometimes called Long Co(o)mbe or Co(o)mbe Longa. See the British History Online site, already mentioned by Archie's Mum, for a history of the parish including some mentions of the hamlet of East End:
If the family stayed in the same area for generations then it would be well worth investing in transcripts of the Combe and Stonesfield parish registers, which you can buy from the Oxfordshire FHS via their website. There are some gaps in the Combe records, because of the fire at the church.
As I mentioned before, Oxfordshire parish registers are being digitised and will eventually be online so you could just wait . . . but I don't know how long the wait will be.
Just been to the library, as promised. Before I went I studied the page numbers of other people marrying in the Witney registration district in the last quarter of 1857, and concluded that Philip & Mary probably married at Hanborough (formerly spelled Handborough) not Eynsham. So I checked the Hanborough fiche first. Et voilà!
This is what the transcript says:
Oct 8 
HOWES (or HOUSE) Philip, full, b, carpenter, Coombe, s Philip, carpenter
HERBERT Mary, full, sp, gloveress, d Caleb, lab
W: Thomas Groves, Emma Herbert
Expanding the short format this can be read as
Philip HOWES (or HOUSE)*, of full age, bachelor, carpenter, abode at time of marriage = Coombe, son of Philip [HOWES or HOUSE], carpenter
Mary HERBERT, of full age, spinster, gloveress, daughter of Caleb [HERBERT], labourer
were married on 8 October 1857 at Han(d)borough.
presumably by banns, for the transcript would say if otherwise.
The witnesses were Thomas Groves and Emma Herbert.
*this probably means that his surname is given as HOWES in the register but that he signed his name as HOUSE.
Unless I have failed to copy it, the transcript does not give Mary's abode at the time of the marriage, but the transcriber may have used the convention that people are 'of this parish' unless otherwise stated.
Mary's occupation of gloveress was a very common occupation for women in this part of West Oxfordshire. They worked from home, sewing together the parts of leather gloves which had been cut out at glove factories nearby (e.g. in Woodstock). There's an excellent little book on the subject: I have a copy somewhere . . . will look out the details.
The marriage must have been at the old church of St Peter & St Paul in Church Han(d)borough as the church in Long Han(d)borough wasn't built until later.
P.S. The book is Glovemaking in West Oxfordshire by N.L.Leyland and J.E.Troughton. Oxford City and County Museum Publication No. 4, 1974.
Bladon is 3.7 miles from Combe, so extremely close.
There is a marriage at Combe on 27 May 1822 of a Frances HOWSE to a Thomas NORLEGE (later to be shown as NOREDGE/NORRIDGE) and the witnesses to her marriage were a Philip HOWES & a Susannah HOWES. So looking in the Combe PR Transcripts, Thomas NOREGE was a Mason and he and Frances had several children at Combe. However, Thomas NORRIDGE died between 1841 and 1851 when Frances is shown as a widow born c1842 at Stonesfield, Oxfordshire.
Bingo! The Oxon FHS PR Transcripts of Stonesfield shows the baptism on 13 June 1802 of Frances daughter of Philip & Martha HOWSE. Other baptisms to Philip & Martha include David 11 September 1791, Sushanna 19 January 1794, Phoebe 14 October 1804 & Emanuel 10 April 1808. There is also, more importantly for you, the baptism on 16 June 1799 of Philip HOWSE son of Philip jnr, Carpenter, & Elizabeth. Other baptisms to Philip & Elizabeth include Alice 18 December 1796. However, I am not too sure whether the parish register is correct in that it shows Philip jnr & Alice's mother to be Elizabeth. There is a tremendously big gap in the baptisms of children to Philip & Martha between 1794 and 1804 into which would fit perfectly the baptisms of Philip jnr & Alice. The Philip HOWSE married to Martha is shown as a Carpenter and there is no marriage of a Philip HOWSE or HOWES to an Elizabeth at around the correct time on the Oxfordshire Marriage Index. Interestingly, the marriage at Stonesfield of Philip HOWES & Martha GRIFFIN supposedly took place on 12 September 1791 (this date is also shown on the Oxfordshire Marriage Index as well as the PR Transcript of Stonesfield) the day after the baptism of their first child!
Philip & Martha HOWSE then turn up in Combe as there is the baptism of a daughter Jane on 31 October 1813 to Philip & Martha HOWSE, Carpenter. There is a marriage on 31 October 1813 at Combe for a David HOWES, Labourer, with consent of parents & Susanna OVNELL, spinster, both of the parish, one on 27 November 1826 for Alsey HOWES & Job SLATTER, both unmarried and of the parish, witnesses Thomas NOREDGE & Emanuel HOWES, one on 15 October 1827 for Emanuel HOWSE & Susanah MOORE and amongst his witnesses was sister Phoebe HOWSE and one for Phoebe herself on 1 December 1828 to an Edward HEMMINGS of Northleigh. So it looks as if the whole family of Philip & Martha HOWSE went from Stonesfield to Combe sometime between 1804 & 1813. They obviously moved back to Stonesfield again as they are living in the village in the 1841 census (HO107/890/14, folio 8, page 9)
Baptism at Stonesfield on 17 July 1771 of Philip HOWSE son of Philip, Carpenter, & Susannah privately & a marriage at Stonesfield on 19 March 1760 by licence of Philip HOWES, bachelor, & Susanna PANTING, maiden, both of the parish. Witnesses: Thomas HOWES & Wm HOUNSLOW.
Susanna HOWES was buried at Stonesfield on 3 October 1815, aged 82 and a burial for Philip HOWES on 5 March 1816, aged 77
So in answer to your original question, it would appear that Frances was the sister of Philip HOWSE who married Rose GREEN and that a couple of the baptisms at Stonesfield, in all likelihood, erroneously showed the wife of Philip to be Elizabeth instead of Martha.
Hope this helps further
There's a Kate Howse (aged 5, born Oxford) with Philip & Mary in 1871 and a Kate Penny (the one born in Hampshire) with George Mathews in 1871.
From the 1881 census we know that Kate Penny was Philip's step-daughter, so she presumably only became part of the family after Philip's second marriage. So did he also have a daughter Kate from his first marriage?
There is a death registration in the Headington district in the first quarter of 1874 for an 8 year old Kate Howse, who is perhaps the one who was with Philip & Mary in 1871. Also a possible corresponding birth registration for a Kate Howse in the Headington district in the last quarter of 1865.
N.B. the Headington registration district was very big and included Cowley St John (where Philip was living in 1871), Oxford St Clement and Oxford St Giles among others. For a full list of places in the district, see here:
The Oxford Times of 2 February 1867 (available via the British Newspaper Archive) has a long and informative report of the inquest on 28 year old John Penny, who was found drowned by the University watermen William Beesley and John Bossom when they were 'dragging in the river Cherwell . . . midway between George Street and Bath Street' on 24 January.
This part is particularly useful for family history purposes:
George Matthews deposed that he was a plasterer and lived in Bath Street. The deceased married his daughter. They lived with him up to the Monday before Wednesday 9th. They went to live near the bottom of Cherwell Street on the Monday. He last saw the deceased on Tuesday evening, the 8th of Jan. About two o’clock the following morning his daughter came and called him up and said her husband had not been home, and she had been to Messrs. Grimbly and Co.’s back premises, but could not find him...
Grimbly and Co. were John Penny's employers: another witness at the inquest was a colleague, who like John Penny was 'a carter in the employ of Messrs. Grimbly, Hughes, and Dewe'.
The verdict of the inquest jury was 'Accidentally drowned'.
P.S. until this result appeared, I didn't know that the Oxford Times had been added to the British Newspaper Archive. And my 1-month subscription runs out next week!!!
Philip's second marriage to Elizabeth Penny was somewhere in the Headington district. Witney Library's collection of parish register transcripts doesn't cover that area, unfortunately.
Perhaps someone else on the forum has access to parish register transcripts for the parishes in the Headington district? Otherwise your best bet would be to send off for a copy of the marriage certificate, which would cost £9.25 if ordered from the General Register Office in Southport.
You could also send off for a copy of John Penny's marriage certificate to confirm that he did marry Elizabeth Jane Hedges. It would be interesting to see what Elizabeth gives as her father's name . . . though if she was illegitimate then the columns for father's details may be left blank.
I have been trying to find evidence that George Mathews really did marry Elizabeth Hedges. So far no luck. The full set of people with matching references (vol. 16, p.127) in the Oxford district in the second quarter of 1843 is as follows:
There is a John Hopkins in Oxford St Ebbe's in 1851 with a wife Rebecca, and possible sightings (one from census and one from an Ancestry tree) of James Walklin and James Willsdon both with wives called Ann, but this is very flimsy evidence. Best to find the marriage register or get the marriage certificate.
Could this possibly be Elizabeth's death - which would, at least confirm that George Mathews married an Elizabeth.
Oxford Journal 13th September 1884
Sept. 6, at 32, George-street, St. Clement's, Oxford, Elizabeth, wife of Mr George Mathews, aged 63.
What lovely work Ladies. I can see Kirsty's head spinning from here with all of this new info.
Separate names with a comma.