Richard Forder Shiner

Discussion in 'Dorset' started by mugwortismy cat, Aug 17, 2016.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Richard married my cousin, Sarah Clark, on 28 Jun 1877 in Bridport, there is no father named, he is 22, a bachelor, a braider (of nets, I assume), resident in Bridport.

    I have found him and Sarah and two daughters in Portsea, Hampshire in 1881, this confirms his age, and states his place of birth as Beaminster (and I have found his birth registration in Beaminster RD in Jul-Sep 1853), occupation is given as Baker unemployed (maybe the enumerator misread braider?). RG11; Piece: 1146; Folio: 103; Page: 34

    He is not with Sarah in 1891, where she can be found in Allington, Dorset with 6 children; she and the two eldest children are fishing net braiders. RG12; Piece: 1664; Folio: 30; Page: 12

    Another child is born in 1895 who may or may not be Richard's (I say this as in 1911 Sarah states 6 children born, so the seventh may be illegitimate); and in Bridport in 1901 Sarah is stated as a widow. RG13; Piece: 2013; Folio: 61; Page: 6.

    My problem is that I can find no trace of Richard in any other record than those I have mentioned; no baptism, no census except 1881, no death record. There's no clue to tracking him down in the marriage witnesses as they are Sarah's relatives.

    I had a brainwave whilst typing ... earlier I found a Shiner/Forder marriage and then got disheartened when it became obvious they couldn't be Richard's parents ... now I realised that searching the 1861 census for a Richard born Beaminster c1853 doesn't bring up many options ... well, only 4 that look worth pursuing --- and a Fanny Shiner married an Alfred Hayward in Jun 1859 in Beaminster RD, and they can be found in Bristol in 1861 with what must be my missing Richard.

    So I am amending my request to (1) does anyone agree with my theory :) or am I going to have to buy the birth cert? :(, (2) can anyone find him in 1891, and (3) can anyone identify a likely looking death?
     
  2. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

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    The 1881 occupation of baker (unemployed) must be correct because that was the occupation of his stepfather, and in 1871 (n RG10; Piece: 5315; Folio: 30; Page: 53) Bedwelty Wales, Richard is listed as baker confectioner. I wonder what took him back to Dorset, perhaps Fanny died, I haven't checked for that.
     
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  3. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

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    Got it. 188
    RG11; Piece: 2453; Folio: 119; Page: 34;
    Alfred Hayward and family but with wife Susan born Bristol, so Fanny must have died, and they are back in Beaminster!
    I was suspicious of the name of their daughter as Barker in 1871 and looked for Hayward births that might fit. Luckily there was a relatively unusual Priscilla and it turned out to be her!
    So I think your reasoning must be right.
    And this must be Fanny's death in 1873

    Hayward Fanny 39 Bedwelty 11a 87
     
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  4. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Richard Forder
    Christening 7th August 1853, North Poorton, Dorset
    Father's Name Richard Forder
    Mother's Name Fanny Shinar
    Entry Number 1595

    (Beaminster RD covers North Poorton)
     
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  5. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you both :)
    Glad my theory seems to be working out, I can save my pennies ...:rolleyes:

    Chimp, I searched for a baptism under Forder and Shiner, can't think why I didn't find that ... Ah, but that was before I had any idea of his mother's name

    Hopefully I will be back on the trail this evening ...
     
  6. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Forgot to say where I found it. familysearch his christening is under Richard Forden Forden. The Forden is repeated.
     
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  7. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Someone else has a tree on the net. I Googled and found
    http://www.
    dsthorne.com/tree/gtp7440.html

    And in the Dorset Chronicle for the 5th May 1859
    April 25 at Beaminster, Mr Alfred Hayward to Miss Fanny Shiner, by licence.
     
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  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I expect you have seen the baps on Anc for
    Sarah Ann bap21/10/1877
    Emma Frances 22/2/1880
    both giving Richard and Sarah as Parents
    but
    Hilda bap 10/7/1895
    Walter Charles bap 10/7/1895
    Sidney Brook bap 12/3/7898
    All just give Sarah's name - so Hilda was born c1891 (from the 1911 census), so Richard could have already been dead (or fled) before the 1891 census
     
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  9. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Ah. Thanks MollyMay, I'd only seen the first two baptisms. It was in my mind to hunt out the rest this evening. Thanks for Sidney I didn't know of him! :D

    As Sarah gave details of children born in the marriage in 1911 (even though she was 'widowed') I believe the first six children (up to and including Hilda are Richard's). Given the gap between Hilda and Walter and Richard's nonappearance in 1891 I was already suspicious Walter wasn't his before seeing the 1911.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Richard Forder (the father of Richard born c. 1853) is interesting, well he is if I've got the right chap.

    I see him in 1851 in Dorset, HO107; Piece: 1860; Folio: 460; Page: 28

    Next sightings are on Liverpool crew lists from 1868 - 1871.

    Then I think he married Catherine Holmes at Everton, St Chrysostom, Catherine was a widow. I can pick him up again in 1881 RG11; Piece: 3658; Folio: 12; Page: 20, a licensed victualler in Everton.

    Sorry, I don't have time to search further, got to go out, but I'm sure someone will add to it.

    Haven't found him in 1841 or 1861 yet, and the only suitable baptism I've found is for Joseph Richard Forder son of Charles and Mary.

    Forget to mention in 1881 he says born Liverpool but I think it's the same person..........see what you think.
     
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  11. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Same family in 1871, Richard born Dorset a ship's steward
    RG10; Piece: 3815; Folio: 102; Page: 29
     
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  12. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Not that I can find a death - but

    When Sarah Ann married Walter Larkins (Bridport 21/11/1900) one of the witnesses is Richard Shiner
    By the time Emma Francis married Frederick Charles Crew (Bridport 29/5/1909) Richard is marked as deceased.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
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  13. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Well is this him?

    deaths June qtr 1908 Thanet 2a 560 Richard Forder Shiner age 25 (that is what the original says), but is this an error for 55?
     
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  14. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Is that Sarah's son, also a RFS?

    1891, Bridport
    Richard Forder Shiner (indexed Shinew)
    RG12; Piece: 1664; Folio: 30; Page: 12
     
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  15. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Yep, MollyMay and Mealymoo I am sure that witness Richard in 1900 is the son, as is the death in 1908.

    Looks like I have some catching up to do, but not sure I have the wherewithal to get on with it, trying times at work :(
     
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  16. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Sorry to hear you've had a bad day at work, Mugsy. Eat, relax and wind down and when you're ready you can go back to the Shiners and Forders, after all they ain't going anywhere :D
     
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  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Bother - I knew I should have looked for the names of the other children of Richard and Sarah:rolleyes:
     
  18. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Seems some Ancestry trees have muddled Richard Forder Shiner with a Richard Ford Shiner. Except he was born in Wales and emigrated to Massachusetts. Some people seem to be suggesting he had two wives and flitted back and forth over the ocean fathering children.

    For a little while I thought Aha! Richard ran away to America, until I quickly saw that the dates didn't add up, let alone the birthplace being wrong.

    My Richard is still a run-away, no idea what happened to him. But he's not my relative, his poor wife/widow is. So unless anyone is struck with a brainwave, perhaps we will leave this as one of life's lesser mysteries.

    Still catching up, so I will shout if I find I need more help after all :)
     
  19. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Banns were called for a marriage between Richard Forder and Fanny Shiner in Symondsbury. The first on the 27 Feb 1853, then they stopped as Richard was not resident in Symondsbury, they started again 6 Mar stating Richard was residing in the parish of Netherbury. No clue on the banns register as to why the marriage didn't happen.
    Will try to find the Netherbury banns, they might say.
     
  20. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Finally found Henry's 1885 baptism, Sarah (married woman) is the only parent named, so the break-up happened a lot earlier than I initially thought.

    Am now giving serious consideration to the fact that Richard Forder Shiner and Richard Ford Shiner are one and the same. I cannot locate a Richard F Shiner born in Wales. I think the dates that I had previously thought impossible will now work out given this new information. Though obviously those Ancestry trees still have English children born to him that weren't ...
     
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