Robert Manners

Discussion in 'London' started by MollyMay, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    As you all did so well with his brother Richard;), can you please help with what happened to Robert?
    Born 4/11/1840 in Deptford
    1841,1851, and 1861 in the family home
    1871 RG10/751/36/22 Parker's Court Deptford he is lodging with Charlotte Sayer (or Sayce depending on the transcription) b1843 a shirt maker
    1881 RG11/717/37/24 New Street Deptford he is now married to Charlotte b1843
    I cannot find a marriage and I suspect this is the Charlotte of 1871
    1891 RG12/507/57/41 Watergate Street Deptford Robert is listed in the household of his sister Charlotte Say and he is single.
    For most of the rest of the 1890's he is in and out of Vanburgh hospital and Greenwich Union Workhouse
    On 24/9/1889 he is listed as destitute and discharged from the hospital to the workhouse infirmary.
    I have one later sighting of him 11/10/1889 - discharged from Vanburgh.
    Then nothing. He is not in the workhouse on the 1901 census, no death found - he just vanishes:ghost:.
    There is one death reg 1901 for Robert Manners age 76 (15 year out) in Fulham
    (Mar qtr 1a 201), and there is a Robert b1823 in Fulham on the 1891 census.
    It would seem he was not a well man, so the possibility of him emigrating is remote so what happened to him? Surely if he died in an institution his death would have been registered?
    Over to you:reading:
     
  2. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    These won't really help, but they do paint a picture of Robert :(
    Interesting that it is stated he was living with Charlotte Lacy

    Kentish Mercury 12th September 1863
    On Tuesday, Robert Manners, of 2, Crown Court, New Street, in this town [Deptford], was charged with assaulting George Copple of 74, New street. The complainant’s statement was that on the previous night, “when he was sober, because he had no money to get drink with”, he left the Noah’s Ark public house, as it was being closed, when he saw the prisoner who intimated his intention of having a “row” with him, and afterwards, on coming out of an eel shop in Wellington street, struck him a violent blow. He then went and obtained the protection of a constable (Crouch 92R) but in the officer’s presence the prisoner again struck him and he was taken into custody. The prisoner alleged that the first offence had been given by the complainant, but Mr Maude thought otherwise, and ordered defendant to pay a fine of 10s or 14 days’ imprisonment in default.

    Kentish Mercury 15th June 1866
    On Tuesday, Emma Wright, a dissolute character, and Robert Manners, of New Street, Deptford, were charged with stealing a purse and two sovereigns the three shillings and sixpence from the person of John Johnson, tripe dresser, also of Deptford. It appeared that the prosecutor and Manners were out together during Monday evening, drinking. At a late hour they met Wright and prosecutor took her into a public house and gave her a drink. After they left the house and had proceeded along the Greenwich road some distance, the prosecutor discovered that he had been robbed, and he accused both prisoners with the offence, holding them until the arrival of a constable. While being detained Manners let fall a shilling and a sixpence, but the remainder of the money was not found. Mr Maude discharged Wright, who said she had nothing to do with the robbery, and remanded Manners until the following day when the prosecutor again attended and said the woman, Wright, had since acknowledged to him that she saw the prisoner swallow two sovereigns. Mr Maude having ascertained that the prosecutor was drunk at the time of the alleged robbery, discahrged the prisoner, observing that he did not believe any jury would convict him.

    Kentish Mercury 24th July 1875
    Robert Manners, a rough looking fellow of New street, Deptford, was charged with violently assaulting Charlotte Lacy, a woman with whom he lived, by knocking her from the footway into the road in High street, Deptford. Mr Benson admonished both prisoner and complainant as to the course of life they were leading, and fined Manners 10s or 7 days’ imprisonment.
     
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  3. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I've had a little rummage through the Creed Registers for the Infirmary (always a useful exercise as they always recorded people's religion, and there can be useful information added) - there are lots (naturally) but you can, at least go to the letter of the alphabet and plough through just the letter M or whatever.

    Anyway -
    Robert Manners aged 59 admitted to the Infirmary 3/1/1898 discharged 9/2/98

    Robert Manners aged 59 admitted to the Infirmary 17/8/1898 by sister Charlotte Say of 124, Watergate Street, discharged 24/9/1898

    Robert Manners aged 52 admitted to the Infirmary 9/1/1899 by his sister [as above] discharged 22/4/1899

    Robert Manners aged 48 admitted to Infirmary 7/9/1899, no date of discharge, nothing about his sister, BUT in another book it says he was discharged to Tooting Bec and has the date 14/3/03.

    Now, I'm not sure if this is the same Robert Manners (surely there was only one) and if it is the same chap (as he gets younger and younger) was the date in 1903 the date of his discharge or the date of his death...... If I get the chance I will have a look through some more later on or tomorrow.
     
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  4. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thank you so much @AnnB :) - the newspaper articles certainly do paint a picture:eek:.
    Although the 1871 census does have Charlotte's name as Sayer, it seem likely that she is the Charlotte Lacy in the reports

    I had not looked in the creed registers (I must bookmark them)

    Now the Tooting Bec clue could be vital - there is a Robert Manners in Tooting Bec Assylum in 1911 age 61 (so 10 years younger). I had made a note but thought it unlikely, as it was out of Deptford and the age was wrong.
    So it could well be him (RG14 PN2369)
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  5. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    If he is the Robert in Tooting Bec in 1911 then there is a death of a Robert Manners in Wandsworth in 1917 (Sept qtr 1d 544) age 66, which ties in with the age in 1911.
     
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  6. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I have just discovered the Tooting Bec Asylum on the Workhouse site - I think it looks promising, but I don’t think there is much in the way of records on Ancestry. It comes under Wandsworth, I haven’t looked too hard though. If he was deemed to be a ‘lunatic’, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if his age was wrongly recorded :rolleyes:
     
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  7. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I will have a look (after dinner). Thank you, yet again{-(^^)-}

    Can you tell me how to find the Creed Registers - I have been trying to find them in the Anc. Catalogue but so far I cannot see them.
     
  8. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Go to the Ancestry London England Poor Law and Board of Guardian records.
    Select Borough - Greenwich
    Select Borough or Poor Law Union - Greenwich
    Select Record Type - Religious Creed
    then choose whichever book you want to look at from the quite long list - I looked at the Hospital and Infirmary Vanburgh Hill 1896-1901 and 1898-1903
    The books are arranged like one big index, so you can go to the letter M and work your way through all the entries for names beginning with M

    Hope that makes sense :reading::nailbiting:
     
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  9. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Thank you again - got it now :)
     
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  10. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I forgot to mention - do you know of an Abram (or Abraham) Manners? I found him a couple of times in the Creed Registers and the ‘known relative’ was Richard Manners of Greenwich Marker.
     
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  11. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Yes another of mine:D, son of Abraham who drowned in 1854.

    Abraham William b1842/3 Deptford(birth reg March qtr 1843)
    with family in 1851 and 1861
    missing in 1871
    1881 RG11/705/12/18 'married' (yet another who never actually did the deed) to Caroline Brady (her son James Brady is with them;)) Watergate Street. Deptford
    1891 RG12/494/66/62 married to Caroline Alvar Street, Deptford
    Caroline dies 1898
    1901 RG13/543/85/28 widower in workhouse
    Died Dec qtr 1901 age 64 Greenwich 1d 646
     
  12. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I knew I’d come across an Abraham before :rolleyes:

    There are tales of Abraham in the papers. In 1865 he was living with mother and daughter, Martha and Eliza Price in Wellington Street, and they had something of a fight with some neighbours by the name of Haynes. Then in November 1871, Abraham is in court for assaulting Amelia Haynes six months earlier. He was said to have been living in Reginald Street.
     
  13. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I hoped there might be some Tooting Bec records somewhere, but this from the National Archives -
    Tooting Bec Asylum was established in 1903 by the Metropolitan Asylums Board. It was built to relieve pressure on Leavesden and Caterham Asylums which has resulted in adults being admitted to Darenth Schools. The location was specifically intended for older patients to be nearer family and friends. The first phase, which accommodated about 1,000 patients, was followed by a second phase of an extra 900 beds which eventually opened in 1925. After 1930 the LCC ran the hospital until 1948 and the establishment of the National Health Service.
    No case records prior to 1970 have survived.

    :(
     
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  14. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    So, I've been having another rummage amongst the workhouse stuff on Ancestry and got really excited when I found an entry for Robert Manners in the North Deptford Lunatic Order Book in the Settlement and Relief Lunatics 1898-1907. There is an amazing amount of information for lots of the entries, details of their past lives, why they had been admitted etc., BUT what do we have recorded for Robert?
    upload_2019-4-12_11-26-11.png
    :mad::mad:

    This must have been when he was originally designated a 'lunatic', but there's no specific date, apart from 1898-1907.

    So, he was transferred to Gore Farm, which turns out to have been started as a smallpox and fever hospital but by the time Robert was there it was for 'general' patients, and was situated in Dartford, next to the Darenth Park Imbecile Asylum. I'll have another rummage later........I'm sure there has to be more there somwhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  15. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Ann, you find so much more than I can find on Anc. I spent yesterday looking at the records on there for Wandsworth (and read far too many that were nothing to do with me but so distracting:rolleyes:) I have never got to grips with finding things on Anc - although I did go through the creed registers that you found for Vanburgh (and found entries for Abram).

    I looked in Wellington Street 1871 for the Prices and Abraham - no sign, but I did find Amelia and William Haynes. No sign of Abraham in Reginald Street either (when FMP decided it would work and not go 'oops' :headbang:). From the sounds of it he was another bad boy so could have been in prison or laying low somewhere.
     
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  16. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I have to say that looking at the London Poor Law records on Ancestry can be a bit of a chore. There doesn’t seem to be much rhyme or reason as to the way they describe some of the records and you have to be prepared for things to turn up in unexpected places :rolleyes: You just have to be prepared to spend a lot of time looking for something you probably won’t find :D I have managed to teach myself to try not to get distracted by all the wealth of information that is there on everyone but the person I’m looking for - it always seemed a lot easier when I looked at them at the LMA! I really should learn to make a note of what I’ve looked at, as I tend to find myself going over the same ground, time and time again, but that’s not always a bad thing.

    I have had another look, and again got quite excited (it doesn’t take much) when I found there were some admission papers for Tooting Bec Asylum but, naturally, not for 1903 :sceptical: I’ll give it another bash tomorrow, but I don’t think there's any more to be found on Robert.
     
  17. MollyMay

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    I think I did the Tooting Bec ones last night :confused: - and there was nothing, well lots to distract me but nothing on Robert.

    I tried to find the North Deptford Lunatic Order Book and I couldn't even find the Settlement and Relief of Lunatics to look for it:headbang:
    I need lessons in Anc searching :reading: and must stop getting distracted:oops:
     
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  18. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I’m pretty sure I went through the Settlement and Relief books, but I’ll take another look tomorrow. And repeat after me.....’I must not get distracted, I must not get distracted’ :D:D
     
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  19. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    To find the Settlement and Relief of Lunatics -
    In the London Poor Law Records
    Select
    Borough - Greenwich
    Parish or Poor Law - Greenwich
    Record type - Register of Lunatics
    Scroll down and you will come to all the Settlement Relief Lunatics books
     
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  20. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I'll try - honest:D
     
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