some help needed with Burial interpretation please

Discussion in 'Church Records' started by Treble Clef, May 24, 2015.

  1. Treble Clef

    Treble Clef Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    New South Wales, Australia
    My ancestor Robert BENGE was buried 2nd July 1838 age 63 years as recorded on St John the Evangelist, Westminster register.

    Recorded in the Bishop's Transcript for St John the Evangelist, Westminster 1838, page 267 (found source: London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980 at Ancestry).

    My query is this: written near his name are two letters and I don't know what they mean. He is not the only person to be found on this register with such letters near the name; some of them have only one letter near the name.

    Can some kind soul please enlighten me, as I have no idea what it indicates, surely something (?)


    burial.png

    Thanks in anticipation........
     
    HildaW likes this.
  2. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,053
    Likes Received:
    15,421
    Location:
    South Australia
    Could it be 'home death'? perhaps not looks more personal. have you followed him through BMDs to find an occupation?

    In Sth Australian circumstances there is a list of meanings for all BMD initials which I'm sorry I forget, & can't access my discs now.
     
  3. Treble Clef

    Treble Clef Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    New South Wales, Australia
    I don't think it means 'home death' Wendy. Elsewhere on the same page are others with yet other letters near their name, see image. I sense that these letters are something to do with the church's own recording methods
    with meaning known to them. I was hoping somebody may have come across this before and had been able to discover their meaning.


    2 burials.png
     
  4. crazycatlady22

    crazycatlady22 Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    836
    Location:
    Blue Mountains, Australia
    At first I thought that it might be an indication of the persons faith, but then I thought that it may be an indication of where in the cemetery the person was buried. I have been digging through the records that I have to see if I could find any letters next to the name, but none of mine do.
     
  5. Treble Clef

    Treble Clef Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    New South Wales, Australia
    I am wondering whether there was a Tax / Fee / Donation made to the Church for burials in this period of time and these letters may indicate the payment of such - but strange letters to use, what could they possible mean:
    D for duty(?)
    N for nil paid(?)
    but what about H D - this has me stumped, the mind boggles....

    Of course these are only my speculations and would be very happy to be corrected with the real definitions.

    Look forward to hearing ideas from others.
     
  6. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,920
    Likes Received:
    25,377
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Are there any others in the register that you can see? Are there more but different letters or all just as those shown here?
     
  7. Treble Clef

    Treble Clef Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    New South Wales, Australia
    Yes there are many others in this particular Bishop's Transcript for St John the Evangelist, Westminster 1838 with letters near the name.

    But the only letters used (if my interpretation is correct) are :

    D

    N

    H D
     
  8. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,920
    Likes Received:
    25,377
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Hmmm...I was going with crazycatlady but not too sure now. That being cemetery section.
     
  9. Joanne

    Joanne Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    1,067
    Location:
    South Australia
    Could it be an abbreviation of occupation or district?. On Australian death certs it has at times mentioned housewife,mariner,widow etc
     
  10. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,920
    Likes Received:
    25,377
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Westminster Parishes of St Margaret and St John (the Evangelist) 'there were two other burial grounds belonging to St Johns, the old and the new, the new ground filled so fast that the parish authorities were obliged to employ the old ground again.
    Could the 'N' mean 'the new ground' the 'd' mean 'the old ground' and 'hd' a reuse of the old ground. Just a thought.

    burial.magic-nation.co.uk/bgwestminster

    Burial Grounds of London
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
    crazycatlady22 and Treble Clef like this.
  11. Treble Clef

    Treble Clef Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    New South Wales, Australia
    Well there's a thought to ponder now. I was not aware of the two burial grounds so it does sound a plausible suggestion, thank you kindly.
     
  12. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,771
    Likes Received:
    12,214
    Location:
    North Devon, England
    I can't find any clue as to what these initials stand for - only another mention of them on a blog on the web, where the author asks anyone who knows what they mean to let her know......

    It might be worth your while contacting Westminster City Archives and asking them if they can help.
    https://www.westminster.gov.uk/contact-archives

    Ann
     
  13. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    5,408
    Likes Received:
    15,294
    Location:
    Knighton, Powys, Wales
    There was a thread about this

    http://www.
    rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570260.27

    They wrote to the Westminster Archives and got this reply

    "In St Margaret’s church registers (and St John was a joint parish with St Margaret) D D means “double duty”, ie paying double for the burial. There are other abbreviations, eg GD (great duty), CD (child duty) CN (child nils, ie no fees). I don’t know what they mean in practice, only that it was to do with the fees charged for the burial. There are other abbreviations for where the graves were, eg MY (St Margaret’s churchyard), CV (chancel vault), GV (great vault)."
     
  14. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,771
    Likes Received:
    12,214
    Location:
    North Devon, England
    Oh well done Terry, I got boggled-eyed trying to find out more about the initials - it makes sense that they probably refer to fees charged :)

    Ann
     
    Elsiesgirl and Chimp like this.
  15. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    5,408
    Likes Received:
    15,294
    Location:
    Knighton, Powys, Wales
    Took me ages too, Ann, nearly gave up, but you know how it goes.... I'll just look at one more suggestion then that's it...... neeeeever happens :D
     
    Joanne and AnnB like this.
  16. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    4,746
    Location:
    Oxfordshire, UK
    What an intriguing puzzle, which has kept me occupied for a couple of hours! I think I have got an answer now but here are some of my thoughts along the way.

    Many of those marked 'N' are stillborn children or tiny babies, or those from the workhouse, so I wondered if that might be nil - for no duty?

    Then HD, D, DD might be half duty, duty, and double duty (as already found by Chimp while I have been otherwise occupied). But I did find an HDD which confuses matters. Also ED, EDD and EDDL.

    A number of young men all from Rochester Row are marked 'G.G. H.D.' or 'C.G. H.D.'. Eventually I twigged what the G.G. and C.G. meant when I found a couple recorded as G.Gds / C.Gds and being from 'Gds Hospl Rochester Row'. There was a Guards' Hospital, Rochester Row, so G.G. and C.G. must I think be Grenadier Guards and Coldstream Guards.

    Next I found the handy The funeral guide; or A correct list of the burial fees, &c. of the various parish and private grounds . . . in the metropolis & five miles round, also the cemeteries near London . . . by John Cauch (1840):

    https://
    books.google.co.uk/books?id=V9oDAAAAQAAJ

    which has this table showing the various fees:

    Burial fees St John the Evangelist, Westminster.JPG from which it seems likely that HD is Half Dues and ED is Early Dues.

    Googling for more about Early Dues I hit upon some Parliamentary Papers with statistics on burial fees. The page for St John the Evangelist makes it clear what many of the abbreviations mean:

    https://
    books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZvhDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA55

    even explaining the mysterious EDDL (early double duty in lead).
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  17. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,734
    Likes Received:
    18,302
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    Huncamunca likes this.
  18. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,730
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Nottingham U.K.
    I have a forebear buried here in 1838 and I've never worked out the significance of these abbreviations/initials.

    These abbreviations don't seem to have been used in the Burial Register until a new register was started on 17 October 1825. Interestingly the previous register has 2 entries for 17th October 1825 and none of these abbreviations are used at all for those and yet the third burial that day was entered in the new register and is denoted N. (Bishop's Transcripts are on Ancestry and the original registers are on FMP under 'Westminster Burials'). Unfortunately the original register for burials before 17 October aren't on FMP and so it's not possible to check online as to whether the abbreviations appeared in the previous register, but I suspect they didn't.

    The use of these abbreviations had petered out by 31st October 1825 but restarted on 1st January 1826.

    It's a shame we can't see the pre-entry pages of these registers to see if there is a note that explains the abbreviations.


    The 'new' Burial Ground on Horseferry Road came into use in June 1823 when the old one, adjacent to it, was immediately closed**. It's marked here on an 1862 map and is now a park.

    http://www.
    motco.com/map/81006/SeriesSearchPlatesFulla.asp?mode=query&artist=390&other=696&x=11&y=11



    http://www.
    londonremembers.com/memorials/st-john-the-evangelist-garden


    **http://www.archive.org/stream/stjohnevangelist00smit#page/122/mode/2up
     
    Joanne, Ma-dotcom, Elsiesgirl and 3 others like this.
  19. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,730
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Nottingham U.K.
    Should have checked before I posted but I was too busy rootling around - well done Huncamunca! There's a sentence in the history of St John's (page 123) that says, "By this time [June 1823] the number of military funerals had become considerable, owing to the existence of the three soldiers' hospitals in the parish" - which fits very nicely with Huncamunca's findings.

    http://www.archive.org/stream/stjohnevangelist00smit#page/122/mode/2up
     
  20. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,053
    Likes Received:
    15,421
    Location:
    South Australia
    Always there for us Jane.
     
    Joanne and Huncamunca like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice