South Africa burial ?

Discussion in 'Empire & Commonwealth' started by Chimp, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Looking for the burial of Sydney Baker. Sydney was born in Knighton, Radnorshire in 1863, the son of Solomon and Jane Baker.
    upload_2018-7-29_20-6-12.png

    He had married in Llanbadarn Fawr, Radnorshire, in 1891, his Wife, Mary Ann (nee Owen), died and was buried in Knighton in 1898.

    There is a headstone in the cemetery:-

    N42 Kerb Marble
    In loving memory of SYDNEY BAKER who died September 12th 1904 aged 41 years Also his wife MARY ANN who died October 11th 1898 aged 29 years.

    I may be wrong but, I wouldn't imagine his body would have been brought all the way back for burial. Also I have found Mary Ann's burial in the register, but not one for Sydney.

    Nor can I find a date for him leaving for South Africa.

    Any help appreciated.
     
  2. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Do you think this could refer to Sydney’s burial, and the name has been wrongly reported?

    Leominster News December 2nd 1904
    Knighton
    Obituary - The funeral of Mr Henry Baker, eldest son of Mr Solomon Baker, baker and confectioner, High Street, an old an well known inhabitant, took place at the cemetery on Monday.

    A bit of an odd notice, don’t you think? No date of death or any other detail - and if they did bring his body home, it would have reached home by December.
     
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  3. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Not him I'm afraid, Henry was the son of Solomon and Jane and was born 1828 making him 76 when he died.

    Deaths Dec 1904
    BAKER Henry 76 Knighton 11b 98
    If it had have been sydney he'd have been a bit ripe by then :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  4. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Thought that might be the case
    I have seen reports in the papers of bodies being brought back home after dying abroad, but I suspect you would have needed a tidy sum to do so if the body was embalmed or in a lead lined coffin.......:nailbiting:
     
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  5. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    That is how my friend's SIL was brought home (about 20 yrs ago now) and that was by plane :((and yes it cost an awful lot).
     
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  6. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    I know of one person connected to me who died in South Africa and although he had no family anywhere other than in England, he was buried in South Africa. He was not short of money so returning his body to England must have been either very impractical or very expensive, or both! That was in the 1960s.
     
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  7. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    I wonder if the cemetery office would have a record of who arranged for the headstone - and when.

    I reckon that it is just a memorial to Sydney whilst being the burial place of Mary Ann. Once they had heard that Sydney had died, then a memorial could be placed and Mary Ann's grave was as good a place as any... :)
     
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  8. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    They are very good with the plots of burials and who are in them but they don't hold the stone information for that far back. These days you have to register the stone and wording in the form of an A3 blue-print. We had to do it for Mum's headstone.
     
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  9. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Who would have early 'burial books'? Did undertakers hand them down?
     
  10. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

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    Would these records be any good:

    Knighton Burial Authority Record.
    "Records relating to Knighton Burial Authority and predecessor bodies, 1880-1977, including burial grant books, 1880-1974; interment books, 1900-1963; order and receipt books, 1905-1977; register of burial grants, [c.1930]-1972; and miscellaneous papers, 1938-1972. A hard copy is available at the Powys County Archives Service."

    Code:
    https://archiveswales.llgc.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=11958&inst_id=40&term=Knighton%20%28Wales%29.%20%7C%20Burial%20Authority%20%7C%20Archives
     
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  11. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    I have looked at those books, they're a law unto themselves. You get people buying plots and someone else, not related, getting sole burial in the grave.
     
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  12. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I've found a couple of references to Sidney's death on the National Archives of South Africa web site
    Code:
    http://www.national.archives.gov.za/index.htm
    Only trouble is, the chances of getting any information out of said archives is practically zero, at least it was when I tried. Maybe things have changed? Might be worth contacting them - but don't hold your breath. I'm still waiting for a reply after about 10 years......:sceptical:

    upload_2018-7-31_8-24-31.png

    upload_2018-7-31_8-25-15.png
     
  13. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Thank you Ann, I don't think I will try contacting them though.
    I just tried the search that you have done and it keeps coming back with '0' results.
    1. I havent a clue to what I am doing on their site
    2. It's about as bad as our TNA :eek:
    Laptop........window....... :mad:....nuf said.
     
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  14. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I was going to warn you about the vaguaries of the web site, but though you being such a clever Chimp, you might think I was being cheeky :oops:

    If you want to have another go,
    Select ‘Search National Automated Archival information Retrieval System’
    From the list click on RSA - All archives repositories and national registers of non-public records
    Fill in the search form - I found the easiest way was to stick in Baker and then put the date of 1904, then I found the two records in my previous post amongst all the others.

    On the other hand, you might think that life is too short......:rolleyes:
     
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  15. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Great instructions, I found one of the results you found :)

    It doesn't tell you what you can do with the results.....but I can guess :D
     
  16. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    You could try looking at this site http://www.e-family.co.za/index.htm

    On that page you will see a mention of a researcher called Tobi Swart - I found him very helpful. You can ask Mr Google for his contact details :).
     
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  17. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    That’s the sticking point, you can’t seem to do anything with them :mad: I found an entry for one of my Nan’s brothers which would have been really interesting.......but I’m still waiting for them to tell me how to get a copy of the document, many years later. Maybe I should try again.....:nailbiting:

    I know I’m not alone in waiting for a response.
     
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  18. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    It's not for me, I was helping someone out in March 2016, the other day I found the above #1 clipping in the paper, so sent it to him. He hadn't known that Sydney had gone to South Africa, he thought he had died in Knighton, although, we could never find a death record. I wouldn't mind paying for a copy but don't really want to fork out for someone to research.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  19. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    Ah no, I didn't pay anyone for research, I posted a message on a Rootsweb message board and they replied with lots of useful information. I was being a bit lazy yesterday, and as this was in 2001 my memory of it is a bit hazy too. Now I have got my file out and checked what actually took place. It so happened that they had already researched the person I was interested in for someone else, and was willing and able to pass on the information. I suppose that's unlikely to apply to the chap you are interested in.

    However, what I can tell you is that the Unabridged South African Death Certificate I eventually obtained (in 2015) gives the place of burial (or cremation). Getting the cert was a very long process, however. You have to apply via the South African High Commission in London, following a process detailed on their website, and it takes about 6 months for the cert to arrive. It costs £7 plus P&P.

    This is the link to the process and application form:-
    http://southafricahouseuk.com/civic/certdeath.php

    You'd need to Google the South African Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1992 (Act No. 51 of 1992) and read Section 29 before filling in the top section of the form.

    It is important to indicate that you require an unabridged certificate.

    The details I was able to provide for the deceased were: date of birth, surname, place of birth, forenames, date of death, town/city of death and province of death. I left the other items in that section of the form blank.

    Re the applicant details, I gave a UK passport number for 'identity number', with a note immediately below saying '(UK PASSPORT NUMBER - NOT A SOUTH AFRICAN)'.

    Hope this helps!

    Sue
     
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  20. HildaW

    HildaW Well-Known Member

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    Hi Chimp & AnnB, I found the adoption papers for a friend's Mum. He got his daughter who lived in Cape Town to go to the Archives and there a very helpful man took her request for photocopies, she paid a very small amount and a week later the copies were ready and yes they were very revealing - including a copy of the birth cert from Scotland in 1921 which differed significantly from one that had been ordered and paid for just 3 months earlier- his wife phoned a person in Scotland have no idea who she spoke to but this person told her all sorts of wrong likelihoods and she paid more for the cert than the UK price.. and it was typed on the day and was really quite wrong on significant parts of the information - the record number was the same so it was extremely careless typing by a clerk of the day!!!! only after they got this cert did he tell me about it all very excited, I was furious because the same amount of money would have bought loads of credits on ScotlandsPeople and I could have got way more for that money than, as it turned out, that wrong birth cert.

    But back to NAAIRS... if you have Skype your best bet would be to phone the Cape Town Archives and speak directly with one of the staff asking about those two specific files and how can you obtain photocopies or scans and how to pay, the fee is minimal just the cost of the photocopies (I am not sure if they do scans now for overseas) and postage to UK and hope for the best that you actually get the documents. If collection is mandatory for posting onto you then you will need to ask someone in Cape Town if they can collect for you. I am 1500 kms away sorry.

    Cape Town Archives are quite well operated (at least they were 5 years ago but that could have changed)... the rest of the country don't even bother, you will need a local researcher to get anything from the other provincial archives.
     
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