Sparkes/Sparks Sunderland

Discussion in 'Durham' started by daisydogno1, May 15, 2014.

  1. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    I have a question. On the marriage certificate of my 2x grandparents, married in Ireland it says," the grooms parents are from Sunderland England". I looked up Sunderland and it said Lancashire, Durham and Cumberland. I feel I need assistance in finding the correct county to search for William Sparkes/Sparks, born in England and married in Belfast 1885 and raised a family in Belfast.
     
  2. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    Sorry ,I have encroached into your message. I was trying to send a message to the Cumberland site.
     
  3. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Hello daisydogno1 and welcome to Top Dog :)

    Ancestry has strange ideas about where some places are! The parish of Sunderland (which was home to many of my ancestors) was in the county of Durham until 1974. Even the wider area of the registration district of Sunderland was completely within County Durham.

    Does the marriage certificate say anything else about William's parents (e.g. father's age and occupation)? Do you have an approximate date of birth for William?

    Don't worry: one of our friendly Mods or Admins will be able to move your post into a thread of its own. As your query is about Sunderland then the County Durham board may be most appropriate.
     
  4. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    (Just to really confuse the issue, there is a Sunderland in Cumberland, by the way, that comes up as place of birth in a number of my census entries. It's near Cockermouth. So if someone's birthplace is transcribed on Ancestry as 'Sunderland, Cumberland' it may be correct. Daisydog's relatives are obviously from Co. Durham, on the other hand.)
     
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  5. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Oops, I may have been premature in suggesting this query should be on the Durham board then. :oops:
     
  6. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    If the thread needs moving again, that is easy to do, so please don't fret. :)
     
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  7. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    HI Daisydogno1, was there no ages, Names of Parents or witnesses on the marriage cert?
    A possible- parents secret.
    William Henry Spark
    England and Wales, Birth Registration Index, 1837-1920
    birth registration: 1863 Sunderland, Durham, England
    ..............
    So, perhaps the lad wasn't born there, just the Parents??
     
  8. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    I am waiting for a full document of this couples marriage but I have this *Adair/ Sparkes. Eliza Adair and William Sparkes married at Saint Josephs CC Belfast 5/4/1885. Eliza from Carnalee St ,daughter of James Adair and Margaret Murray Adair. William from Nt Queen St, Belfast, son of William Sparkes and Elizabeth Sparkes .Wittness Charles Manery and Margaret Adair." Comment Disp from Dr Dorrian Rev Owens Mgr. Husbands parents from Sunderland England. " I am of the opinion that William may have been underage. From his death certificate he died in 1931 aged 61 which makes him born ABOUT 1870 so this would mean he was 15 years old. Elizabeth, by her death cert was born 1866, 4 years older. I am all over the place with this couple because in the 1901 & 1911 census they are of a different age and William is born in England and Eliza is born in Scotland. I would appreciate a little guidence .
     
  9. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Hello daisydogno1 and welcome. I can understand your situation ans about being all over the place with this family.

    You mention that you have 1901 census {Ireland, I presume] and being Catholic their children should been baptised. You know where thry married in 1885, you have 1901 census which should list all children as of that year and their ages.

    Depending on the ages of the oldest children my suggestion is to contact the Church where the parents were married as they may have records to assist you.
     
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  10. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    These are available for Sunderland, not really much help tho' as William has a 2nd name of Henry.
    WILLIAM
    Last name SPARK
    Marriage quarter 2 of1871
    Potential spouse's name(s) JANE ROAL, ELIZABETH ANN OLIVER -
    District SUNDERLAND
    County Durham, England
    Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
    Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
    ..........................
    Births Jun 1863
    SPARK William Henry Sunderland 10a-490
    Births Jun 1872
    Sparkes William Henry Sunderland 10a-635

    Not having much luck finding these people on censuses for UK.

    Have you tried here?:
    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/archive-for-family-and-local-history
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  11. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    Thank you for the advice today. I have all of their childrens details and I am now working backwards towards finding the Grandparents. I am Lucky/unlucky that the grandparents seem to come from Scotland and England. Unlucky because I cannot find Elizabeth Adair b.1866 in Scotland and I cannot find William b 1870 in England. I know there are many with their names but not the two who managed to find each other and married in Ireland in 1885. I should be happy with how far I have come with so little information but I am a greedy person and I want to do a little better.
     
  12. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    According to the 1901 census William was about a year older than Elizabeth (they were 42 and 41 respectively). Both are shown as Roman Catholics, as are their children. Here's the census for anyone else trying to help on this one:

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000283551/

    FamilySearch has an Eliza Bailey Adair, born 1 July 1856, Girvan, Ayrshire, whose parents are given as James Adair & Margaret Murray. If this is your Eliza then she is 5 years older than the 1901 census would suggest. Either her age is a long way out or she's the wrong person.

    An 1861 census transcript on Ancestry has a 33 year old James Adair (born Ireland), cotton weaver, in Duff Street, Girvan, Ayrshire, with wife Margaret (28, b. Ireland) and daughters Eliza (4) and Mary (1) both born Girvan. You'd be able to see an image of the census enumerator's book on Scotland's People, if you had some credit with them. It looks like the same family (with more children) was still in Girvan 10 years later.

    Given that James and Margaret were both born in Ireland this may be their marriage: James Adair (aged 24, son of William Adair) married Margaret Murray (aged 21, dau. of Michael Murray), 9 December 1852, Newtownards, County Down, Ireland. (FamilySearch, Ireland Marriages, 1619-1898). There should be more details in the church register, or on a copy of their marriage certificate.

    FamilySearch gives dates/places of birth for several other children:
    • William Charles Adair b. 19 Jan. 1855 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
    • Eliza Bailey Adair, born 1 July 1856, Girvan
    • Mary Jane Adair, born 18 April 1859 Girvan, Ayrshire
    • Catherine b. 14 Oct 1861 Girvan
    • Margaret b.16 May 1864 Girvan
    • James b. 23 Aug 1866 Girvan

    If this is your family, did they all go back to Ireland? If some of them stayed in Scotland then you should be able to find them on later censuses, death registrations etc. on Scotland's People. You should also be able to find birth registrations for the children to confirm the details given on FamilySearch.

    Still looking for Spark(e)s . . .
     
  13. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    Amazing!! I found Eliza Bailey Adair earlier in my searching and put her to the back of my mind. I had the marriage of James Adair and Margaret Murray Adair from Newtownards Ireland 9th Dec. 1852 .James 21 and Margaret also 21. Father William Adair and Michael Murray, but I could not find the link to the children in Scotland. I have a Scotlands People account and will search more. I read somewhere that the " Plantation People" - what a word! would sail back and forth between Ireland and Scotland to work on family farms come harvest time. This could explain why these families had 2 countries to live in.
    The family of Eliza Adair Sparkes and William Sparkes' children had names of Ellen 1885, Margaret Jane 1886, Elizabeth 1887, William James 1888, John Patrick 1889, Charles 1892 and Frederick 1894. I believe the children were all named for brothers and sisters which is so very close to the children of James and Margaret. Thankyou Huncamunca and every one else for helping.
     
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  14. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    It looks as if Scotland's People does have a birth registration for William Charles Adair in Lanarkshire in 1855. In that first year of Scottish civil registration, more detail was given in the records: the birth register should tell you when and where the parents married, and even where they were born. (It was soon realised that it would be too time-consuming to continue gathering so much information, so later records are less detailed.)

    It is proving difficult to identify likely parents for William Spark(e)s. Perhaps on the full marriage record there will be an occupation for William's father, which might help. Also, knowing what William's own occupation was at the time of his marriage might lead to finding out more about him (might he have gone out to Ireland with the army, for example?).
     
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  15. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    I estimate I should recieve the post for the marriage of Adair and Sparke 1885 ,sometime late next week.
    I have one child of Eliza and William ,Margaret Jane b 1886- fathers occupation Soldier. The other children has his rank as Coachman.
    Today I have searched the Military of UK . I had "estimated " Williams dob to be 1860 -1870 and found 4 candidates but narrowed it down to William Thomas Sparks Reg no 107171 born 17 Jan 1862 at Portsea, Hampshire REF ADM 188/129/107171.
    The second was Alfred William Sparks Reg no 1131, Royal Marine Artilliary enlisted 14/9/1878 DOB 14/9/1860. Parents William and Elizabeth from West Derby, Lancashire. All of this is just guess work. I am sure I have missed the vital William Sparkes I am looking for.
     
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  16. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Ah, very interesting! So we are looking for someone who was still in the army in 1886 but discharged (or transferred to the army reserve?) soon afterwards. Hopefully the marriage certificate will tell you his rank and regiment, which may lead you to his military records.

    If the certificate doesn't give you that information, then I think it will be a matter of trawling through military records looking for likely candidates. For army records the 'British Army Service Records 1760-1915' collection on Findmypast is the most obvious place to look.

    Perhaps the next step is to look for these two on censuses to find out more about them and their families.
     
  17. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    I have recieved today a letter from Northern Ireland Statistics & Research Agency for the Gro in Belfast which says that they cannot find any entry of marriage for William Sparks and Elizabeth Adair . The period searched was 1883-1887 inclusive.I have a print out from Ancestry ireland.com of their marriage on 5/4/1885 in St Josephs CC Belfast.Is there a reason why the Government agency has not got information that ancestry has?
     
  18. Doug

    Doug Administrator. The Main Man. Staff Member

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    Hi Daisydogno1,

    When you say you have a printout what exactly is it? From a tree on ancestry, a copy of index etc.

    I have searched on Ancestry for them in the indexes without success. though the search is playing up.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  19. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Did you ask them to check for Eliza or Elizabeth? These Government offices can be pretty annoying at times and will only look for what you ask for. If they have been asked to look for Elizabeth, then they will ignore any reference to Eliza. :(
     
  20. daisydogno1

    daisydogno1 New Member

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    Ordinarialy I would keep a copy but I cannot remember what I wrote. I sent them a reply with the print out wich will be no mistakeing what I needed.
    The printout came from Irish Genealogy Search Ireland which is an Ancestry site I believe.
    I also went looking for Sparks instead of Sparkes and that has more Sparks to look at and to sort out all those who were not in England after 1885 and 1891.Your help is very appreciated.:)
     

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