Swansea St Mary's lookup, please

Discussion in 'Glamorgan' started by Moff, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have access to the parish records of St Mary's Swansea, please? According to FamilySearch and the West Briton newspaper, John Williams of St Clement, Truro, married Susan, only daughter of Captain William Jenkins of Swansea, there on 1st September 1836.

    I'm trying to work out if this John Williams is my Great (X2) great uncle who was born in St Clement in 1805.

    I've found the one who married Susan Jenkins in the censuses from 1851 onwards until his death in 1883. No trace of him or Susan in the 1841.

    Now hoping that the marriage record may show John's address, his and his father's occupations, and the names of witnesses, and that something will prove to be a link, or to completely disprove the theory that he's mine.

    I'd be very grateful if someone was able to have a look for me.
     
  2. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    FMP has the marriage>

    John Williams of the parish of St Clement Truro, County of Cornwall, Bachelor, and Susan Jenkins of this parish, spinster...married by Licence 1st September 1836.

    They both signed the register.

    Witnesses> Thom[as] Jenkins and Edw[ard] Hammett [both signed].

    Unfortunately this was just a year before the civil registration of marriages started and so you don't get all the useful detail that you do on a 'modern' certificate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
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  3. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks so much for the quick reply! Not as much info as I'd hoped :( so I'm still a bit in the dark as to whether John is my rellie. I'm pretty sure he was, as he was an assayer or assay master like his father, in the copper industry, and his age on censuses pretty much ties in, and the age at death is correct. I would like some real proof, though, before I add his marriage and family into my tree...
     
  4. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    For others searching> in the 1851 census for Swansea there is a John Williams who was born in Truro. He is 42, a widower and his occupation is an Assay Master.

    He has a son Edward age 13 who was born in Truro and a daughter Susan age 5 who was born in Swansea. They are living in Waterloo Street, Swansea.
    Census Ref: HO107/2466/257/22
     
  5. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I see the 1861 census [RG9/4103/38/11] for Swansea has Edward and Susan Elvina listed and also George who has popped up from nowhere. He is John's son age 18 and was born in Swansea.

    2 clues there - where did the name Elvina come from and where was George in 1851?
     
  6. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    I've had a look for George and can't find him. He'd have been about 8, so maybe at boarding school?
    Have tried George, Geo and just G with no luck. Also tried Wms for Williams as it's commonly used as an abbreviation - zilch.
    There was a fashion for educating kids in Germany - my grandfather was educated at Nieuwied - so maybe George was out of the country? (Not a nice thought, at that age...)
    My rellies, Cornish and Welsh, seemed keen on having each other's kids to stay so maybe he'll pop up somewhere in the future.
    I'm surprised that I can't find John, Susan or their son Edward Starbuck Williams in the 1841 census. I would expect them to be in either Swansea or Truro, but of course they could be anywhere :rolleyes:
    Haven't come across the name Elvina before - will have to do a bit of digging there.
     
  7. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

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    I just put in George b 1843 Swansea and found him at Mr Browning's Boarding School, Weston Somerset.
    HO107; Piece: 1943; Folio: 638; Page: 45;
     
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  8. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    And here's an advert for the school, which appeared in the Bristol Mercury for the 4th July 1857.

    WESTON BOARDING SCHOOLS NEAR BATH FOR THE EDUCATION OF YOUNG LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
    Inclusive Terms, £20 per Annum.
    No vacation unless wished for. The customary notice not required.
    This Establishment has been carried on successfully for upwards of Twenty Years by Mr and Mrs BROWNING, assisted by Eleven Male and Three Female Resident Teachers. In these Schools, the highest intellectual advantages are combined with careful moral training and superior domestic arrangements. The premises are spacious, and the situation is beautiful and healthy. The SECOND SESSION of 1857 commences on MONDAY, the 11th of July. Prospectuses forwarded on application
     
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  9. Londoner

    Londoner Will always roll up her sleeves and dig around

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    Judging by the number of census pages they catered for quite a lot of children. Not a "Dotheboys Hall" we must hope.
     
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  10. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    I've just tried again with FamilySearch - for whatever reason it is not showing me George at School!
    Think there must be something wrong there - I tried just George, with no surname, born 1843 in Swansea, and all the results seemed to be in Wales although I hadn't "refined" the search.
    Many thanks to those who have helped :):):)
     
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  11. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Moff, you will need to use a database with census records such as Ancestry or Find My Past. That will bring the record up - but you'll have to pay to use either site. Do you subscribe to either of these or any other similar ones?
     
  12. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Methinks a trip to the library is required! Can't see why FamilySearch is only showing a bit of the 1851 census, though - the people I was looking for were easy to find in the later censuses :rolleyes:
     
  13. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    I gleefully took advantage of Ancestry's free days over last weekend, convinced that I would find something to clear up this mystery, but – nothing. :( Still no trace of John and family in the 1841 census. However, I did find more intriguing snippets elsewhere:

    In a newspaper obituary, (The Cambrian, 23rd November 1883) his family stated that he was born on 14th September 1805. “My” John was baptised on 29th September 1805 per St Clement, Truro, parish records.

    According to an online family tree, he had a daughter, Margaret, who was apparently born at Truro on 18th June 1839. I can't find this, except for a possible mention in the West Briton newspaper of 21st June 1839: “in Rosewin Row, Truro, on Tuesday last, Mrs. John Williams, jun., of a daughter.”, but it may be among the parish records that aren't online (St John, Truro). Margaret married Richard Ferris Michell on 4th August 1859 at “the parish church, Swansea”. (FamilySearch shows that it was at St James, Swansea.)

    The same online tree states that John Williams married a Jane NORRIS, who was born “circa 1816” at Truro. Can't find her birth or the marriage. I haven't found anyone of the name NORRIS anywhere in my investigations.

    John's wife, with whom he had four children, Margaret (1839?), George (1842), Edward Starbuck (baptised 1839) and Susan Elvina (24 Sep 1845), was named Susan, nee JENKINS. The names “Starbuck” and “Elvina” appear in the Michell family. John appears as a widower on all censuses.

    No trace of his wife Susan's death, but he married again, to Jane BROWN, in 1851, so Susan must have died some time between September 1845 and early 1851.

    The “Cardiff and Merthyr Guardian Glamorgan Monmouth and Brecon Gazette” of 29th November 1851 and the “Monmouthshire Merlin” of 28th November 1851 have the announcement:

    “Nov. 20, at Llansamlet Church, by the Rev. T. Walters, of Kilvey, John Williams, Esq., master assayer, Swansea, to Jane, second daughter of Edw. BROWN, Esq., manager of the White Rock Copper Works.” According to FamilySearch (parish register transcription) the marriage was at Glantawe, and FreeBMD shows it registered at Neath.

    John and Jane had a still-born daughter in 1852 (Cambrian Index online) The Index mentions that they lived at Waterloo Street, Swansea, and the child was born at Jane's father's address “Kilvey House”.

    The “Cardiff and Merthyr Guardian Glamorgan Monmouth and Brecon Gazette” of 6th August 1853 has this notice of Jane's death:

    “July 29. at Kilvey House, near Swansea, the residence of her father, after a long and painful illness, Jane, the wife of Mr. John Williams, assay master, of Swansea, aged 34.”

    The West Briton of 12th August 1853 carries the same notice. Jane's age at death ties in with FamilySearch's record of the christening of Jane BROWN on 27th February 1819 at Llansamlet, Swansea, with parents Edward BROWN and Anne.

    I'm fairly sure that this John Williams is my relative, but I'm still digging for proof. I'm hoping that the witnesses at his second marriage (to Jane) might throw some light on things. His siblings George, Octavius, Henry, Betsey Lilley Williams (known as Elizabeth) and Lydia Jenkins, were all alive at the time. I haven't found any mention of a will for this John, but I'd be surprised if he had not made one.

    Any ideas or info that anyone can throw in my direction will be gratefully received! :headbang:
     
  14. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    The m/c is on FMP, but no Williams witnesses, unless Lilley married a Harries
     
  15. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the quick reply!
    Could you possibly say who the witnesses are? Betsey Lilley Williams didn't marry, so Harris is a new one on me!
     
  16. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I have sent you a message :)
     
  17. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    There is a burial of a Susan Williams (Glamorgan Burials Transcriptions) on 17/12/1847 age 28 making a year of birth 1819

    Cornwall Baptisms Transcriptions have the bap of Edward Starbuck Williams
    on 17/11/1837 at St Mary Truro
     
  18. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I just wonder... on the 1841 census in Powell Street Swansea
    HO107 piece 1426 book 7 folio 33 page 6
    is a 3 year old Edward Williams not born in county,
    he is the only Williams listed but there is an Elizabeth Jenkins age 70
    Could this be your Edward Starbuck Williams with one of his mother's relatives?
    I cannot find any trace of his mother and father though.
     
  19. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Ooh, thanks! The first sighting of him since his birth. Elizabeth Jenkins could well be someone from his mother's family. Something more for me to look into. :)
    Things are looking up!

    I've received info re the witnesses to John's wedding to Jane, and unfortunately they are no help in confirming him as “my” John. One is Jane's father, another possibly her brother, and the third a lady I've never heard of.

    However, I have now discovered from probatesearch.service.gov.uk that the will of John Williams was proved on 28th January 1884 by Frank Tamblyn Williams of Llanelli – my John's nephew!
    8(:-)

    I'm sure now that I can claim him as my great-great-great uncle and put him into my tree as a Definite Relative rather than the “Maybe” that he's been for a long time. He brings with him more family to investigate – I'm wondering if they are somehow the link to the late John Williams from Swansea who was some kind of my cousin to my father.

    The online tree that states that he married Jane NORRIS must be wrong.

    The probate record is intriguing – John left a lot of money. A note on it states “Personal Estate £40,893 5s. 5d. Resworn May 1884 £34,375 15s. 5d. Double Probate issued November 1885.”

    On 13th November 1885 John's will was proved by Edward Starbuck Williams (his son) with Personal Estate £34,375 15s. 5d.

    What on earth is Double Probate? I've never heard of that before – can anyone enlighten me, please?
     
  20. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I have just googled double probate and this is an explanation:-

    A second grant of probate in respect of the same estate in favour of an executor who was not a party to the first grant. This occurs when the executor has not renounced his executorship and has a power to apply for a grant of probate at a later time than the original grant because, for example, of power reserved by that executor.
    :confused:
     

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