Thomas family of Liverpool

Discussion in 'Lancashire' started by mugwortismy cat, May 30, 2020.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I need help with the Thomases again (I had a previous thread about them and the Wallnutts), revisiting due to a question asked me on Ancestry. Answered that but started going over things and have found a big problem. Well, frustrating ... and I am going in circles getting nowhere. So over to you.

    We will start with the 1911 census in Abercromby, Liverpool: at 30 Russell Street, RG14: 22178: schedule 14; all born Liverpool unless stated otherwise:

    William George THOMAS Head 48 Married Fruiterer (Hawker)
    Louisa THOMAS Wife 46 (married 25 years, 15 children, 9 living, 6 died)
    William George THOMAS Son 23 Widower (Married 2 years, 2 children, 1 living, 1 died) Fruiterer
    Louis THOMAS Son 20 Single Fruiterer
    Martha THOMAS Daughter 18 Single
    Edward THOMAS Son 16 Single
    James THOMAS Son 15 Single
    David THOMAS Son 11 Single
    Florence THOMAS Daughter 8 Single, born South Shields
    Francis THOMAS Son 4 single
    William George THOMAS grandson 2 single


    I only have 14 children for Louisa and William George(1), minor quibble

    I do not have and cannot find a marriage for William George(2), I have his second marriage in 1913, this was a Roman Catholic ceremony at Liverpool St Francis Xavier. I do not know if the first was also.

    William George(3) the only birth registered in Lancashire in this time frame (Mar 1909 West Derby) has a mmn of Robinson. A William Thomas did marry a Beatrice Robinson in Mar 1909 Liverpool. But I believe that I found this couple in 1911. Just in case the birthplace of Liverpool was extra wide I also checked Cheshire, but found nothing.


    three possible marriages for William George yielded nothing (to me anyway)
    Mar 1907 Haslingden -- I felt this was too far away.
    Dec 1907 Prescot
    Mar 1908 West Derby -- this marriage has 3 grooms and 2 brides

    Of course I am assuming that William George(3) is the son of William George(2)

    :confused:o_O
     
  2. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I don’t know if this helps at all, but from the Liverpool Echo of the 23rd July 1938
    A verdict in accordance with the medical evidence was returned at the inquest at Crosby today on William George Thomas, aged 50, fruit merchant, of Merrilocks Road, Bundallsands. His son, Mr Francis Joseph Thomas, fruit merchant, said his father enjoyed good health until about 12 months ago, when heart trouble developed. He had been confined to bed for the past five weeks. Dr David Brown, Bootle, who had been attending Mr Thomas for about three months, attributed death to myocardial degeneration, due to cirrhosis of the liver, following chronic alcoholism.
     
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  3. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Well it helps as I hadn't confirmed a death for him. it is rather sad though :(
     
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  4. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    That's Blundellsands of course (typesetting error).
     
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  5. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    There were 2 x Louis. One born 1889, died 1889 then the second one born 1890.

    Did you have them both?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
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  6. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Oops, that's my fault :oops:
     
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  7. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Yes, I have both Louis's :)
     
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  8. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    There is a marriage on the GRO Index in the March qtr 1908 at West Derby for a William George THOMAS. There are 3 male names on this particular registration page but only 2 females - perhaps the missing one is a ROBINSON? One of the other males on the same page is a George Joseph SIMPSON and there is one of that name living in Liverpool in the 1911 married to a Jane Veronica (one of the female names on the GRO being that of a Jane DAWSON). The other male name on the page is that of an Arthur Edward HARRIS and I cannot find him with any certainty in the 1911 but I have found a birth registration in 1912 at West Derby for an Eileen Harriet HARRIS, mother's maiden name RIMMER, the other female name on the GRO marriage reg page is that of Mary Ellen RIMMER. Still no luck on the ROBINSON name though.

    Janet
     
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  9. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    @janetbooth Interesting that you mention the name RIMMER one of the sons from the second marriage has that as his middle name, though seems unlikely a first wife's name would be used in that way
     
  10. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    Lancs BMD have a marriage 1908 West Derby Register Office, William G Thomas and Mary E Rimmer.
    Perhaps Mary Ellen was a widow, maiden surname Robinson?
     
  11. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure I found the original yesterday, but blowed if I can find it now. It was definitely a Catholic marriage as I had a job reading it. If it was the one I found, it said she was a widow and that her maiden name was Prendergast.

    The reason I didn't mention it was, I am sure, that I found Thomas births on the GRO in 1909 (William Francis Gerard) and 1910 (Edward Charles) mmn Prendergast, but couldn't find a death for Edward Charles or for a Mary Ellen. Having looked again tonight, I think I have found them (on the GRO).

    Mary Ellen Thomas Dec. Q. 1910, Liverpool - aged 31
    Edward Charles Thomas Mar. Q. 1911, Liverpool - aged 0

    I did find a marriage of a James RIMMER to a Mary Ellen PRENDERGAST in 1899, West Derby. They can be found in 1901 at RG13/3413/104/6.

    I think I found a death for James.

    Off to have another look for that marriage.
     
  12. Murfomurf

    Murfomurf Well-Known Member

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    Did I miss something or have you considered this marriage from FreeBMD:

    Marriages Mar 1906
    Thomas William Toxteth Park 8b 337
    Williams Ellen Toxteth Park 8b 337

    Where Ellen Robinson acquired the surname Williams from:

    Marriages Sep 1900
    Robinson Ellen Prestwich 8d 692
    Williams Joseph Prestwich 8d 692

    Giving you this family in the 1911 Census
    12 Barnet Street Liverpool
    West Derby
    RD 455
    Sub-regWest Derby Western
    ED 49
    Piece 22601
    Household Members
    William Thomas 38
    Ellen Thomas 36
    Elizabeth Thomas 5
    William Thomas 3
    John Thomas 1

    The 2 boy's reg:

    THOMAS, WILLIAM GEORGE ROBINSON
    GRO Reference: 1909 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 716

    THOMAS, JOHN WILLIAM ROBINSON
    GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 299
     
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  13. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Obviously my memory is failing me as I didn't find the marriage, so I thought I would look for the baptism of William Francis Gerard THOMAS.

    Found it, and that was where the mother is listed as a widow with a maiden name of PRENDERGAST. Born on 28 March 1909 and baptised on 3 April? 1909 at Holy Cross, Liverpool :rolleyes:

    I think this register has marriages in the left hand column for the person that was baptised - again, not much good at reading Latin, so not 100% sure.

    I was wondering how I managed to find a marriage that took place in a Register Office :oops:
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  14. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I already have widowed William George and his one surviving son in the 1911 census, so this is not my family
     
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  15. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    Well, some of the entries do.
     
  16. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    If Mary Ellen and Edward Charles are the missing wife and child you are looking for, they are buried at Ford Cemetery in what I assume is the same grave - K373 - details on Ancestry - Liverpoool, England, Catholic burials 1813-1895.
     
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  17. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Having now found this myself, it does mention as what I assume to be one of the godparents or sponsors Martha Louisa Thomas, my William George has a sister with that name.

    I've seen it in this family before @Jellylegs when there was a civil ceremony in 1911, and then a religious ceremony in 1913, the details of the 1911 marriage were recorded in the margin. And RC baptisms nearly all give the mother's maiden name which can be handy ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
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  18. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I suppose to be sure I should order the William George birth with mmn Robinson, and the William Francis Gerald birth with mmn Prendergast. Or do we think I can get away with just ordering the second?

    I know William the grandson is written as William George in 1911, but every time I look at it, there is like a little stumble in my reading of it as if George was added with a hesitant hand
     
  19. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    I thought you found the Thomas/Robinson family in 1911?
     
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  20. Jellylegs

    Jellylegs Well-Known Member

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    The marriage of William Thomas and Beatrice Robinson is on FMP - 22 Feb 1909. They were both 19 (which ties in with their birth years on the 1911 census). He was a machinist and his father William, a Labourer.
     

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