TISCH, TISH, Tiskovitch

Discussion in 'Middlesex' started by mugwortismy cat, May 8, 2014.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    -- Tisch is a Jewish Silesian (Polish/German name), may also be a shortening of the Russian TISKOVITCH (which was probably a Russian version of Tiisch to start with), there are a fair few Polish/German/Russian Tisch families in the East End


    Desperately searching for a Morris TISCH

    He was the husband of Kathleen (nee Thomas) when they married in Dec 1935 in Paddington district, she would have been about 24 -- now I know nothing else about her, except she died in 1940 (yes, she is one of my War Dead)

    Took me ages to find out which M. Tisch was her husband (which is all cwcg.org told me), mainly because at his marriage he is indexed as TISH (don't have the funds to splash out for marriage cert at the moment, and even with a middle initial M I can't find her among all the Kathleen Thomas's --- I though he would be easier)

    I have found them (I hope) in Electoral rolls in Hackney in 1938 and 1939 as Kitty & Maurice, with Louis and Samuel TISCH --- Louis and Samuel are likely those born to a MILLER mother in St George in the East in 1911 and 1915 (there is also a Simon in 1917)

    What I don't know is if these are Morris's sons or brothers; I'm hoping brothers and that poor Katheen wasn't step-mom to sons her own age

    There is a birth registration of a Morris in St George in the East in 1909, who may be a sibling to Louis, Samuel and Simon

    Likely TISCH marriages are those of Marks TISCH Sep 1902 Mile End and Myer TISCH Jun 1907 Mile End

    Now all seemed to be going quite well; in the 1911 census [RG 14/1585/62] I found Myer TISCH and wife Millie with a son called Morris --- except Morris is 9 and not 2 and born in Russia -- and Myer and Millie have been married much longer than the expected 3/4 years, so Millie isn't the Millie GOLD from the 1907 marriage!? and anyway aren't I looking for a MILLER as mother?

    I can't find a TISCH, TISH or Tiskovitch (and variants) marriage to a MILLER

    I found a couple of other Morris's none born in 1909

    Haven't even tried looking for Marks Tisch in 1911, but he didn't marry a Miller either; did in a mad moment think perhaps Millie was confused and gave the registrar her first name which he converted into Miller ...

    Without spending money I really don't have am I (with your help) going to get anywhere with this confusion ??
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
  2. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Additionally I have come across a baby Blanche TISCH injured in the same incident as killed Kathleen, apparently about 4 months old according to the Civilian Casualty list

    I assume she may be Kathleen's daughter (but maybe a niece) but cannot find out anything more about her, not even a birth reg.
     
  3. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    There is a death registered of Maurice Tish March qtr 1975 in Hackney v13 p1645
    his dob is given as 15/8/1901
     
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  4. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks MollyMay

    So it seems likely that Kathleen was married to the Morris I found in 1911 (son of Myer and Millie)

    But everything else is very confusing o_O --

    for example:

    who are Samuel and Louis?

    did Myer and Millie have to remarry for some reason when they came to the UK? hence the 1907 marriage ...
     
  5. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    A real conundrum, I have been looking for the birth reg for Blanche and like you can find nothing (tried all babies reg. Blanche in London 1939 +/- 1)
    All I can come up with is a Frances B Tisch but her birth was not registered until Sept 1940 Stepney 1c 232 (mmn Thorns)
     
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  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    There is one birth resgistered to Tisch with the mmn Thomas in Sept qtr 1936 in Camberwell.
    Will send you the details by conversation
     
  7. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Could Thorns be a mangling of Thomas?

    I think it is probably right, I mistakenly said 4 months I meant 4 weeks
     
  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    That had not crossed my mind, but now you mention it.....
     
  9. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I have now done what I should have done before posting - looked at the original it clearly says THOMAS! It is typed so how on earth has it been transcribed at Thorns?
     
  10. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Not really of much help, but there is an entry in the National Probate Calendar for Catherine Tisch in 1954
    Tisch Catherine of 30, Kenninghall Road, Hackney, London (wife of Morris Tisch) died 9 September 1940 at 32 Kenninghall Road. Administration London 7 April to the said Morris Tisch, cabinet maker. Effects £1525.

    Ann
     
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  11. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you Ann :)

    It helps by adding to the overall picture
    1) why is she suddenly called Catherine though? and 2) why did he take so long?
     
  12. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Consider the date of death - possibly WW2 had something to do with the delay. Not only that, papers may have been lost/destroyed etc because of bombing, adding another delay.
     
  13. The Artful Dodger

    The Artful Dodger Dodging, ducking and diving

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    Just a suggestion - nothing more - could there have been confusion at the time? Kathleen and Catherine sound very similar in times of stress?

    Ignore if you wish.
     
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  14. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks Colin


    She is Kitty on the Electoral registers I've found - which in her case is definitely a pet-name

    She is a Kathleen on the War Memorial -- and also a Kathleen on her marriage registration

    Since I can't identify her birth registration she may have been baptised or registered as a Catherine --- which would make Kathleen a pet-name also
     
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  15. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    How about this?
    From the London Gazette of the 3rd March 1903
    thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27531/page/1429
    In the "List of Aliens to whom Naturalisation or Readmission to British Nationality have been granted...."
    there is
    Louis Tisch - Germany - 17th February 1903 (date of oath) - London 17 Fairclough Street, St George's East.

    1901 census RG13/310/134/14
    17 Fairclough St. St George in the East
    Louise Tisch a 40 year old Tailor's Cutter from Germany with wife Julia, born Russia, son Maurice, aged 14 born London, daughter Rebecca and an Anna Solomons, 65, wid., born Russia (possibly Julia's mother?)

    On FreeBMD there is Morris Tisch reg Dec. qtr. 1887 and a Rebecca in Dec. qtr. 1890

    Ann
     
  16. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Too late to edit - should read Louis (not Louise) Tisch........:oops:

    Ann
     
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  17. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks Ann

    I have seen the census and freeBMD entries. I've noted the use of similar names among the Tisch (and Tisckovitch) families whether they hail from Germany or Russia, all adds to the confusion ... I don't think he is my Morris/Maurice as his age doesn't match the death in Hackney, but then again maybe he moved ... if I can find that Louis and Julia had a son called Samuel things might look more likely
    Though I am coming to the conclusion that I might have to stop worrying about the money and get Kathleen's marriage cert., then I can firm up the identity of Morris and maybe have a chance of identifying her ....

    One of the things I have been mulling over is whether IF Kathleen's husband is the Russian-born Morris (son of Myer and Millie) might he have been interned for part of the War? This might partly explain why it was 9 years after the War when he dealt with Kathleen's Probate -- he would have had to rebuild his family and his business and he may have been dealing with a bit of hostility and suspicion too.
    Possibly the same would apply to the London-born Maurice with a German father ... even though they both were Jewish (that probably just adds an extra layer of prejudice ...)

    Is there a way to find out?
     
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  18. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    It's OK Ann, we understood :)
     
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  19. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I did wonder if Morris/Maurice was too old for the one belonging to Kathleen/Catherine. I'll keep looking as I'm intrigued as to why the Tisch/Tish families are so hard to find info on.

    Ann
     
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  20. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Have answered my own question --- currently downloading (free digital microfilm) an index from the National Archives that would cover the name Tisch to see if they were interned or considered for internment -- not downloading everything else I can see myself getting carried away on another project ...
     
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