TISCH, TISH, Tiskovitch

Discussion in 'Middlesex' started by mugwortismy cat, May 8, 2014.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Oh dear, I had such high hopes of finding the right Morris Tisch/Tish but have completely failed to find him or his father ... haven't even started looking for Kathleen's family yet :confused:

    this is the marriage cert.:

    1935 Marriage solemnized at the Register Office in the District of Paddington in the Metropolitan Borough of Paddington

    Second December 1935

    Morris Tish aged 27 years, Bachelor, Fruiterer, of 60 Malmesbury Road, Bow; father Philip Tish, Boot Manufacturer
    &
    Kathleen Mary Thomas aged 25 years, Spinster, -, of 158 Westbourne Grove; father Walter Thomas, Commercial Traveller (retired)

    witnesses; J S DAYAN[?], J H DENNIS

    I have got as far as identifying a death of a Phillip TISCH or TISH in Hackney, Mar 1944 aged 60 (born c1884) -- note: Ancestry has one of these spellings under Hinckley, Leics.

    I have also tracked down the electoral register for 60 Malmesbury Road in 1935; Louis & Amelia ABRAHAM, and David & Esther DOBINSKY are there

    I have found a Jun 1927 marriage in Stepney between Esther TISH and David Dobinsky

    I've temporarily lost heart but that may be too much sun from working in the garden earlier -- sure I will perk up latero_O
     
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  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Concentrate on something else and come back to it later. You do not have the tag-line that you have for nothing. ;)
     
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  3. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Disappointing, but that's the name of the game :rolleyes:

    Chin up - it's only a little glitch - look how much you've achieved already. Who would have thought that with the name of Tish/Tisch, this lot would prove so difficult :confused:

    Ann
     
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  4. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    From the National Probate Calendar, it looks like Esther Dobinsky shortened her name: an Esther Dobin of 61 Coburn Road, Bow, London E3 (wife of David Dobin) died 7 March 1960 at The London Hospital Whitechapel Rd, London E1. Administration London 13 July 1960 to the said David Dobin tailor. Effects £596 7s. 3d. From FreeBMD she was 54 when she died.

    Assuming she is Morris' sister, and that they both ought to be on the 1911 census, I tried searching for an Esther and/or Morris with father Philip but fruitlessly. In desperation I went to the old '1911 census online' site because you can add names of other members of the household (which no longer seems to be possible on FMP) and searched for Esther [without surname] born about 1905/6, living in London, with a Morris in the same house.

    et voilà!!!

    On the not-too-long list of matches was an Esther FISG. The same transcript must be used on FMP, I think, for the 'FISG' family popped up straight away. I think they are the missing TISH family! They are boarding with Israel Chaytow and family. Abraham (not Philip :( , but at least he is a boot repairer) and Polly Tish, 35 and 30 respectively, and both born in Russia, married 7 years with two children both still alive. There are two children with them (but relationships aren't stated: all just shown as boarders): Morris (3) and Esther (6) both born London St George.

    According to the transcript they are at 19 Crellin Street.
    (RG 14/1513, ED 15, schedule no. 317.)

    P.S. Ancestry has them as LISH.
     
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  5. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Huncamunca 8(:-) thank you:)

    had been pulling weeds and decided to pop back in and have another try, to find that you have the answer!

    Don't know why I didn't think of FISG:confused:!!, might in desperation have given *ISH a try though ; perhaps I would eventually have remembered the 1911 census site, I used to enjoy manipulating searches to try and work out who was in which household :cool:

    Not unusual I believe for Jewish families to change first names (as well as surnames) --- I spent some time looking for a Barnett Trobe from a marriage registration only to realise that he was on every census as Charles -- red herring anyway ...
     
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  6. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    I have been looking for Kathleen on the 1911 census

    I can only find one with a father Walter RG14 PN 21642 SN191 but the family are living in Frodsham Cheshire.
    Walter is a coal merchant.
    There is a birth reg. for this Kathleen Thomas:- Dec qtr 1910 Runcorn 8a 210
    Kathleen M Thomas


    Edited to correct birth reg year (sorry Muggy)
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
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  7. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you MollyMay:)

    So long as you mean 1910;), I think you have cracked it -- and I didn't even get a chance to try!! I will look into it, once I have satisfied my carbohydrate cravings ...
     
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  8. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I am trying to find 158 Westbourne Grove in 1935 Electoral Registers; I found via Google that it is a property of several flats called Giles House but don't know if this was so in the 1930s

    I have found several planning applications online regarding trimming of trees at the property including a laburnum, and my hit and miss attempt to navigate Google Street View eventually landed me outside a block of flats that look more 1960/1970 to me, with what I think is a laburnum outside (but that should be at the back and a weeping willow and lime tree should be at the front) [don't ask me to find it again :eek: but look here for a map that may help if anyone else wants to try to find the right place http://idoxpa.westminster.gov.uk/on...etails.do?activeTab=map&keyVal=004ZYBRPLI000]

    Eventually located the right section of Westbourne Grove in the Electoral rolls only to find that 158 is not listed at all ... after 156 it moves straight to 160 :( -- I guess that this means that whoever was living there was not entitled to vote ? if the address was in Stepney I'd assume it was the home of Morris's Russian-born parents, else I am at a loss

    so no idea why Kathleen was there except that it enabled her to get married at Paddington Register Office -- but surely they could have married at any Register Office and didn't need that one particularly o_O
     
  9. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    158 Westbourne Grove does appear in the 1936 electoral register

    Not sure it helps any though o_O has the following ladies in it (maybe a women's hostel/boarding house?):

    Marianne Elizabeth AGER
    Judith CROWHURST
    Sylvia PROSSER
    Vera Evelyn SPANSWICK
    Florence WILLIAMS

    i might play around a bit more tomorrow to see if any of these names are relevant; might look for the address in 1934 -- just in case
     
  10. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Looking for 158 Westbourne Grove on Google maps took me further up the street, but by 'walking' back, I came to what purported to be 162 and there is what looks like a large weeping willow in the front garden of quite an elegant property. Looking at Giles House via Google and at the images - I see what you mean about the modern looking block of flats and the willow tree......I am now thoroughly confused as they seem to be two different places but with a very similar tree.......:confused:

    Will come back to this later after shopping

    Ann
     
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  11. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Just had another quick look at Google maps street view and by looking carefully, it would appear that the elegant property and the block of flats are side by side, so the willow tree appears to cover the front of both.

    Ann
     
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  12. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I can't find anything to say what 158 Westbourne Grove was, but it must have been some sort of boarding house, as by 1947, there are 13 occupants including Marianne Elizabeth Ager, Edith Maud Crowhurst and Sylvia Jeanne Prosser
    In 1929 there were 6 occupants, but each has another "abode" in brackets.

    Ann
     
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  13. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Found via Google images from an estate agent's site:

    This appears to be Giles House:

    http:// media.rightmove.co.uk/64k/63431/23918274/63431_512039_IMG_00_0001.JPG

    So not a 1930s (or earlier) property :(

    Still thinking that 158 Westbourne Grove was one of those boading houses for young ladies venturing into London for their first job away from home; doesn't appear on electoral rolls for 1934 or 1935; in 1936 as mentioned there are 5 ladies, two of which have such distinct names it is no problem to work out that they have just turned 21 ----

    Marianne Elizabeth AGER b. Mar 1915 Tonbridge
    Vera Evelyn SPANSWICK b. Dec 1914 Kingston

    (Sorry Ann hadn't seen your last before I posted, we appear to be thinking along the same lines then)
     
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  14. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    That block of flats appears to be sandwiched between rather elegant looking buildings. Maybe they had large gardens into which this later block was built? Or, for some reason or another, there was a similar building in there which has since disappeared? Methinks a trip to Westbourne Grove might be called for.....at least you could see how the numbering really goes these days, and you'll get a look behind the willow :rolleyes:

    Ann
    PS Just thought have you found the address in earlier census's? I'll have a look later if not. :)
     
  15. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Haven't looked yet, the 1911 might shed some light, then again anything could have happened in the next 20-odd years before 1935 o_O

    Must go and do things now (stop prevaricating -- not strictly correct use of word, but you understand :), time-wasting and avoidance seem to be my main problems of the day :oops:)
     
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  16. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    In 1911 (RG14 Piece 48 Enum. Dist. 08 Schedule 547) there is a Florence Lomas living at 158 Westbourne Grove, aged 80 and a widow born in London. Living with her is one servant and between them they are occupying 13 rooms......

    Ann
     
  17. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Leaving aside Westbourne Grove for a moment and looking for Kathleen's father; I believe I have identified all censuses, have just started transcribing and possibly the issues mentioned below will be cleared up by later censuses/birth regs etc. but would like help in interpreting the 1881 nasty handwriting -- RG11/3514/27/8

    Couldn't decide if the address was Clifton Turn Bridge (as transcribed) or Clifton Town Bridge (which appeared to make more sense) but the household continues on the next page and the address is written again and it seems more clearly Town

    Struggling to decipher head of household occupation and place of birth, although inclined to believe the Ancestry transcription of the occupation, the place of birth does not look like Anglesea to me [Angle???]

    Cannot decide if Louisa's second name is May or Ellen (who would have thought they could look so similar?)

    Cannot decipher the name of the youngest child, listed as a daughter, the transcriber has gone for Henry, I am leaning towards Kerry but what is the second name?
     
  18. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    FMP has it transcribed as Anglesey.

    It looks like Ellen to me. :)

    It looks like Mary Jane to me, born at Weston Point (which is near Runcorn) :)
     
  19. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I think it actually reads something like Anglesham, but surely should be Anglesea.

    I think Ellen

    I think Henry ......but what the abbrieviated name is :confused:

    Ann
     
  20. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you both :)

    I thought it looked like Angleskin :eek:, Anglesham is more likely, but surely must be Anglesey -- unless a Wales expert can enlighten me to something different

    I think Ellen too, especially as I have now found a birth reg. for an Ellen Louisa

    Ann, I think you are spot on with Marg[are]t, as an obvious Margaret makes a showing in the family later -- I had thought Mary Jane [Ann you edited which makes my reply nonsensical;)]

    However, she wasn't the child I meant -- I said that the household continued on the next page, maybe I should have been clearer that the family continues on the next page there are three more children -- I now know her name to be Henrietta, what is written might be Henry Etta
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014

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