Twin conundrum...

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by AnnB, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    In 1865, Samuel Watkinson married Mary Howard in Oldham. On the 19th September 1865, Mary gave birth to a son, registered as Thomas Watkinson, but baptised as Thomas Howard Watkinson in St Chad’s Rochdale. Thomas died in 1878 of ‘brain fever’. In April 1867, Thomas was prosecuted for neglect of his wife and 2 children, so I went looking for another child. I found two more children, William and Edward, who appeared to be twins, both registered in Rochdale in the December quarter of 1866 (William with the ref Rochdale 8e 31 and Edward with the ref Rochdale 8e 32). So, I sent for the birth certs, expecting them to be identical apart from Christian names and maybe with a time of birth. Here are the two certs -
    upload_2020-8-9_9-28-21.png

    upload_2020-8-9_9-28-45.png

    Spot the difference. Same DOB, different places of birth, one registered by Mum, one by Dad, William on the 16th and Edward on the 26th. I’ve looked for a possible death for either or both and can’t find any. One of them must have died for Samuel to be prosecuted for neglect of 2 children, unless the paper got it wrong, but Samuel was prosecuted again in July of 1867 and it said 2 children again. Samuel was a habitual petty criminal and ended up being sent to Portland Gaol in July 1868, but died in 1872 in the Invalid Convict Prison in Woking, aged just 25.

    Any ideas about the differences? I don’t need any other information about his family, it is for a friend and I have masses of stuff – it’s just this I can’t get my head around.
     
  2. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Just a thought....I wonder if there was just one baby. As the addresses are different but same birth date, what if as they weren’t obviously living together, they argued over the name so they both registered the same baby, one as an act of defiance. Maybe there is another child somewhere which accounts for there being two children who weren’t being supported.
    Also there is no baptism for either name on LOPC.
     
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  3. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I couldn't find any baptisms either. It did sort of cross my mind that they might be one and the same child, but it is the same registrar, so I reckoned that might have been picked up?
     
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  4. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    As Thomas Howard died in 1878 then that accounts for the second child, silly me. So I think that the ‘twins’ were either Edaward or William and I can’t find either. So far
     
  5. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Me too AnnB, but 10 pages apart? do you really think that chap would have ' picked it up'....having seen a few of mine- I leave pause for thought.
     
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  6. Genie1

    Genie1 Well-Known Member

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    Have the family been found in 1871? I have looked but no luck. I was hoping to find who was in the household.
    The two children mentioned in the paper-would one have been Thomas Howard Watkinson and the children on the birth certificates were one and the same and therefore the other?
     
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  7. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    If they were twins, wouldn't they have their times of birth also recorded?

    Just a thought....
     
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  8. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how you'd prove any of this, but one possible explanation is that the family were living in Milkstone (an area to the south of Rochdale town centre) and the baby was born there. Father went to register the birth but for whatever reason gave his choice of name rather than what had been agreed.

    They then moved to Livsey Street (north of the town centre), and it emerged that he'd done it wrong. So mother goes off to do it properly, but rather than as an amendment to the original registration she did a completely new one. ("Where do you live? Was the baby born at home?" - not hard to get the wrong answer there.)

    Note the date of the second registration (26 Dec) - I wonder what the atmosphere would have been like over Christmas... :eek:
     
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  9. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    In 1871, Samuel was in Portland Prison. I haven't been able to find the whereabouts of Mary and whoever she had living with her.
    When Thomas Howard Watkinson was baptised on the 7th May 1866, the address given was Livsey Street, so they were living there earlier in 1866.
    upload_2020-8-9_19-53-5.png

    I can only assume that Samuel moved out to Milkstone, but I've found no other reference to that address
    That's what I thought, but, apparently, that was not a hard and fast rule...:nailbiting:

    I'm waiting for the marriage cert, but that won't really help except to show where they were living in 1865......
     
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  10. Genie1

    Genie1 Well-Known Member

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    I ignored Samuel because he was in prison but no luck at all with his wife. I have put the first child in the 1871 census and also those on the birth certificates and added Mary but no luck.
     
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  11. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Well, at least I’m not the only one who can’t find Mary .....:(
     
  12. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Here's another one - I tried Livesy St as well - she isn't there:(
     
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  13. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Thanks for looking, I think it's going to remain one of life's little mysteries :rolleyes:
     
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  14. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    One of oh so many:headbang:
     
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  15. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Do you have Mary's age/year/place of birth please? And in case she went back to her parents, either of their names?
     
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  16. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Therein lies the rub Arthur. You are thinking along the same lines as me, hence one of the reasons why I've ordered the marriage cert. Mary Howard isn't exactly an uncommon name, so I need to know her father's name. I'm guessing she was born in about 1846 as that's when Samuel was born, and he was only 19 when he married. I'm also guessing she was born in Oldham as that's where they married. Having said that, I can't find a birth registration for a 'suitable' Mary Howard in Oldham, whilst there are a couple in Rochdale. It all hinges on that certificate at the moment......:nailbiting:
     
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  17. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Thanks - I did find a Mary Watkinson in Rochdale in 1871, widow aged about 50 with a string of children and just wondered, but thought it would be better to get an idea of her age before mentioning it. (Which I now have done :oops:)
     
  18. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Fingers crossed its not....
    Mary Ann Howard 15 March 1846 St Chad Rochdale child of Edmund Howard and Ann. Occupation: Fuller. Abode: Meadowcroft Mill
    OR
    Mary Ann Howard 12 April 1846 St Chad Rochdale child of Edmund Howard and Ann. Occupation: Mechanic. Abode: Crumberry Lodge

    :confused::confused::confused:

    But with the name Edmund as father she may have named the fictitious twin Edward after her Dad. Edward/Edmund seem to be interchangeable quite often.
     
  19. Grizel

    Grizel Well-Known Member

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    From lancs BMD the marriage seems to have been at Holy Trinity,Shaw. In Manchester Church of England Marriages and Banns in Ancestry. Mary Howard and Samuel Walkinson (note spelling). If you put in Shaw as a key word in the search it should take you there. I don't subscribe though so can't check,!
     
  20. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Oh well found Grizel - I didn't need to send for the cert (which, naturally came just now) :sceptical: That should keep me quiet for a while :)
    Is that the one in Stephen Street Arthur? If so, that's Samuel's widowed mother along with Samuel's younger siblings :)
    Not those Sue, but thanks. From the newly found marriage cert, we know Mary's Dad was Thomas.
     
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