Upper Tyrone Street, North Dock, Dublin

Discussion in 'Dublin' started by Daft Bat, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    This is where there is a lad in the 1901 Ireland census who looks like he could be my Grandad, James Hart, aged 7.

    I have had a look on google maps to see if I can find the road, but to no avail. The North Dock area is highlighted but the street is not there. In fact I cannot find any road in present day Dublin called Tyrone Street - with or without the 'Upper'.

    Is anyone able to help, please?

    Many thanks. :)
     
  2. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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  3. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    You are an absolute star! Thank you! :D
     
  4. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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  5. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Thank you so much!
     
  6. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    Googling it brings up quite a lot of hits - it doesn't sound like a particularly 'nice' area :eek: From
    http://www.
    historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/monto/
    While Tyrone Street was the most infamous street in the area, with a considerable number of brothels, the adjoining streets, Foley Street, Montgomery Street, Mabbot Street, Beaver Street, Purdon Street, Elliott Place, Faithful Place, Uxbridge and Nickleby, were almost as disreputable.

    This sort of explains the name change, taken from
    http://www.
    jjon.org/jioyce-s-people/madams
    Mecklenburgh/Tyrone Street: by the late 1890s all of Mecklenburgh Street (Upper to the west and Lower to the east) had been renamed “Tyrone Street”, in an early attempt by the Dublin Corporation to transform the nature of the streets. The more respectable Upper Mecklenburgh Street had been renamed first (around 1886), and the more disreputable part east of Lower Gardiner Street was still called “Lower Mecklenburgh Street” until 1888. Charles Dawson (U 6.151, etc.) argued that the name should be changed in 1888 to “Railway Street” (as indeed it was as part of a later clean-up scheme) because “Tyrone Street” “would offend the memory of a famous Irish chief”; some councillors wanted to shame the occupants of the central part of the street by retaining the old name here, but renaming both ends “Tyrone Street”. Eventually the whole length of the street was renamed Upper Tyrone Street and Lower Tyrone Street (see the Irish Times (1888), 18 December).

    There is a photo of Lower Tyrone Street at
    https://
    bloggroupzero.wordpress.com/page/2/
    it's about two thirds of the way down the page.

    Ann

     
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  7. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Thank you, Ann - that certainly gives it some colour! :)
     
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  8. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    That's putting it mildly ;)

    Ann
     
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  9. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    :D
     
  10. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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    Looked at your 1901 find and seeing a sister b.1884 found a Margaret b.30 Mar 1883, bap 6 Apr 1883 Parents James Hart & Eliza Carroll.
    Then a James Joseph Hart b.17 Nov 1892, bap 25 Nov 1892
    But then a James Joseph Hart b.20 Nov 1897 at 28 Upper Tyrone st , Parents Patrick Hart & Elizabeth Doyle cropped up as well !
     

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  11. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    This is the confusion. In 1901, James' mother is a widow, so no idea who his father is from this.

    However...

    On James' marriage certificate to my Gran (in England), he names his father as Patrick Hart, Master Builder (Deceased)

    James has never had a middle name recorded as far as I know and all records have his birth date as 6th February 1894.
     
  12. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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    Mmmm confusing as ever these Irish !
    Have you got a birth cert for James in 1894?
    If not, the only one I can see for Dublin is Dublin North Apr-Jun 1894 Vol 2 Page 527
    As for middle names ,my Father was born in Tipperary as Joseph Walsh but ended up as Joseph Patrick Walsh. Where did Patrick come from !
     
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  13. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Thank you. That is my next move. :)

    There has always been some confusion over the year of birth - 1893 or 1894 - but the 1939 instant census has it as 1894, so the registration record that you have found could well be him.
     
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  14. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    I have been going through the baptisms for St Mary's Dublin using the nli.ie website and think that I have found that one:
    James Joseph HART, born 1st May 1894, to parents James and Mary Ellen. They were living at 28 Coles Lane.

    Therefore, it won't be the right one... :(
     
  15. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is a puzzle as there are a few James Hart's around Dublin.
    When did James get married, as he said his dad was deceased at that time,so maybe work from 1894 to marriage year looking for a death of a Patrick Hart who I assume died in Ireland. Also is Patrick his birth name, as I had an uncle Jack from Ireland who was really John and I've just found out that he had 9 children when I always believed he had one child, and don' t ask about my Irish aunt Maisie who turned out to be Mary.
     
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  16. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    James married my Gran (Louisa) in 1929 but that was in England. My Mum, who was born the following year, never knew her paternal grandparents as James left home at a young(ish) age and never returned home. He also never said that much about his background.

    A bit of a mystery is my Grandad!
     
  17. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Only 4 deaths Dublin North and 6 Dublin South 1894 to1929. The only one I like the look of is Patrick Hart died 1897 Dublin South age 36 so born 1861 and looking again at your 1901 census Eliza b.1864 is a widow. All speculation of course!
     
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  18. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    According to James' marriage certificate, Patrick was a Master Builder - if that is of any help.....

    The death that you have found does look good.
     
  19. patten-walsh

    patten-walsh Well-Known Member

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    I suppose a copy death cert may be useful but no guarantee this person was even married although I did find an 1878 marriage for a Patrick in Dublin when he would have been 17 if it is him, but cannot definately tie him in to an Eliza or Elizabeth as Ancestry lists 3 Mary's and 2 Bridgets on the same page and only 3 males in total for 5 women!
    As ever, it is another tricky Irish bit of genealogy.
     
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  20. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Just remembered something I was told many years ago, that Catholics when baptised are/were given an additional name, I'm wondering if that is where sometimes another name appears that wasn't on the birth certificate? That information was told to me in my teenage years by a friend who was Catholic (nominally :)), not 100% sure but I believe that often that extra name was one of the many saints names.

    The practice possibly hasn't survived to these times but things Catholic were a lot different in my young days or seemed so. I should say that I'm relying on things told to me, not being Catholic and experiencing Catholicism myself.
     
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