What am I doing wrong?

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by kernowmaid, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    In the Leeds, England, Beckett Street Cemetery, 1845-1987 (Ancestry) this record appears:
    1871-1873 Sam MASON Leeds.JPG

    I cannot for the life of me find an 1873 death registered in Leeds for a 2/3 yr old Samuel Mason! Nor can I find an 1871 birth.

    What am I doing wrong? :headbang::headbang:

    Jane
     
  2. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Do you have his mothers name?
     
  3. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm hoping that it's WILLIAMSON but it could be anything ... I think his father (if he's my Samuel) had a bike!

    Jane
     
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  4. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    Hmmm, I can't find anything either. I can only find Samuel and Jane in the 1861 census.
     
  5. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    There's a transcription of the burial register at Yorkshire Indexers, with a link to other burials in the same plot, and (in this case) a memorial inscription.

    There are 4 other burials there, from 1861, 1862, 1886 and 1904, all with surname Story, and from the MI, they are centred on a Thomas:

    1861 - his first wife Mary Ann (age 40)
    1862 - their daughter Isabel Marianne (17m) (GRO birth shows mmn Hatfield)
    1886 - his second wife Frances Hannah (64) (they married 1864, and GRO index has her surname as Cottman)
    1904 - Thomas himself (82)

    The MI doesn't mention Samuel Mason, but do any of these names help?
     
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  6. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    Mysteriouser and mysteriouser ...
    Those 4 Story deaths are registered, as is a 2-year old ERNEST Story, Q2 1873. But even if he died in June, he'd be buried before October ...

    The names STORY, HATFIELD & COTTMAN have not cropped up anywhere in my Tree. Yet.
    Thanks for looking, Chimp and Arthur.

    I still don't understand how a burial can be recorded, yet no "legal" trace of the death (or birth) found.
    I was hoping that this would lead me to the solution of where Sam Mason (Snr) got his 3 sons that he took to Australia in 1879 (it's in another thread, they were supposedly born in New York).

    Sam's laughing at me again. Ghostly chuckles, off-stage

    Jane
     
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  7. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    The address in the burial register is 57 Kirkgate. According to the 1871 census (RG10/4551 fo7 p7) this was the Nags Head pub, and the landlady was a widow named Mary Hollings. It looks like there were two live-in servants, but there's no sign of any guests/visitors.

    Does that help with anything?
     
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  8. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    Well ... it does gives me another name to search!
    Thanks Arthur.

    Jane
     
  9. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    And just to give you something else to consider, I've been looking in White's 1872 directory.

    57 Kirkgate isn't listed, but No.56 is described as Old Nags Head Inn, with Henry Hargreaves as a licensed victualler. He appears elsewhere as an auctioneer, valuer and publican's agent, with a different address, so I wonder if he was the person responsible while there wasn't a resident innkeeper.

    The only Samuel Mason listed in the directory doesn't look like yours. He's at 18 Carr Road, and the 1871 census shows him as 77 years old - RG10/4559 fo126 p6.
     
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  10. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    Sam's father WILLIAM MASON was a fishmonger on Kirkgate - but died in 1856. His wife HANNAH/ANNA may still have been there (I've not yet properly looked for her death).
    Sam was the youngest of at least 6 children, mostly girls (the only brother I've found is Thomas - died July 1871), and I'm hoping that the 3 boys he calls his sons are actually his nephews.

    Sorry, my meal has just been served - got to go! (Mustn't upset the chef!)

    Jane
     
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  11. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    I also can not match up the death of a Samuel-even tried Lemuel- the only death & matching birth for a Samuel was in Dudley 100+ miles away.
    I wonder if the father forgot to register both times? No, the burial person would have ensured that I guess.
     
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  12. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    That's what I thought Wendy - but did the death have to be registered so that burial could take place?

    Further to message 10 (when I was "interrupted") - Sam Mason's mother Hannah was buried April 1869 - same graveyard ... home: 57 KIRKGATE.
    There has GOT to be a connection here.
    (It looks as though daughter Charlotte - married name GRANT - carried on the fishmonger business. But she died 1875. And didn't have sons William, Thomas & John. As far as I know.)

    Jane
     
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  13. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Could the records for that time be missing? or stuck to another page?
    Edit - from Wikipedia:-
    History of the GRO
    Establishment
    Prior to the creation of the General Register Office (GRO) in 1837, there was no national system of civil registration in England and Wales. Baptisms, marriages and burials were recorded in parish registers maintained by Church of England (Anglican) clergy. However, with the great increase in nonconformity and the gradual relaxation of the laws against Catholics and other dissenters from the late 17th century, more and more baptisms, marriages and burials were going unrecorded in the registers of the Anglican Church.
     
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  14. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    My last shot for this evening:

    The ONLY 2-yr old Samuel death in Leeds (Q4 1873) is a Samuel CLAY.
    Should I order that death certificate?
    I'll think on it.

    G'night all, thanks for your help.
    Jane
     
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  15. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Good hunting when you wake up- Sleep well.
    Note either 'Logan' or 'Spedding' -Mmn in Leeds for a Samuel Clay in Leeds b. 1871.
     
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  16. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    The 1872 directory lists an oyster dealer at 58 Kirkgate. The alphabetical (name) listing has William Grant, the address listing has George W Grant.

    The 1871 census has the family as:
    George, 43, mechanic
    Charlotte, 41, fishmonger
    Annie E, 21
    Charles, 19, mechanic
    William M, 13, scholar
    Kezia, 11, scholar
    Henry, 9, scholar
    Walter, 4, scholar,
    Herbert, 2
    All born Leeds; RG10/4551 fo5 p4, continues fo6 p5.
     
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  17. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Yorkshire Indexers list a burial at Leeds General Cemetery (Woodhouse) of a Samuel Clay, a child, son of Samuel and Sarah of Forest Street, on 2 Dec 1873 (d 30 Nov).

    YI give his age as 27, but that seems to be a misreading of 2 Yrs - the original register can be seen here:
    Code:
    https://explore.library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections-explore/538723/clay_samuel?selection=Leeds%20General%20Cemetery%20Burial%20Registers%20Index&titleISADG=Clay%2C%20Samuel&archiveLatest_min=1873&archiveLatest_max=1873&resultOffset=1
     
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  18. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin ...
    WHAT IF:
    - Sam Mason (senior) left his wife Jane after his son William had died (October 1866). He went to the USA.
    - In New York he sired 4 boys; William 1869, Thomas 1871, Samuel 1871 & John 1873.
    - In 1873 he brought the boys back to Leeds and went to live with his sister Charlotte & her husband George William Grant (& 7 children).
    - Samuel (junior) died 1873. Born in New York, with no papers, Sam (senior) decided not to register the death, and a sympathetic cleric agreed to bury him in a vacant grave.
    - Sam met my gt gran's niece Minnie and in December 1874 went with her to suss out Australia. Leaving his boys with Charlotte & co.
    - Charlotte died in May 1875.
    - Sam & Minnie came back to Leeds.
    - Minnie looked after the children while Sam & Mr Grant worked as mechanics.
    - Minnie had a son (George) in 1878.
    - Sam & Minnie emigrated to Australia in 1879, taking their son (George) and the 3 US-born boys with them.
    And they all lived happily ever after ...

    Well, it works for me!
    Sam's 1911 death certificate (details given by son George) states 4 children born in the USA, one of whom is deceased.
    And who would enforce the registration of a child's death?

    Until I find some info about those boys' births, I think I'll have to stick to the fairy tale!

    Jane
    (Edited - 'cos I pressed "Return" too early!)
     
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  19. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Deja vu. Sounds like a story which was proposed here not so long ago. I believe such was done before. ;)
     
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  20. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Jane - the way you've plotted it out does seem to hang together, though obviously you have more info to go on than I have. In particular I don't know anything about Samuel's travels. I tried a quick look for him in the US 1870 census, but without any luck.

    I also wondered what might have happened to Jane after he left. Yorkshire Indexers have 4 burials that might fit age-wise (I don't have her exact dob - only guessing from when she was having children). One seemed to be in a different family's grave, the others in common or guinea graves.

    I don't think it will help with Samuel, but I found a Grant family grave at Beckett Street. The burials there seemed to be:

    4 children of George and Charlotte (Joseph, 8mo, 1856; Emma G, 6wks, 1864; Florence G, 8mo, 1865; Annie Elizabeth, 21, 1871)

    Charlotte, 45, 1875; George William, 82, 1910

    plus (presumably) Charlotte's parents:
    William Mason, 66, 1856; Hannah Mason, 78, 1869

    There was also a burial in a different grave for Samuel's son William, 13mo in 1866, with the address 4 Duke Street.

    Incidentally, I believe at that time Mechanic was a term which meant much the same as Labourer, so I don't think it necessarily implies a particular level of skill or education.
     
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