What happened to Charles?

Discussion in 'Sussex' started by Daft Bat, Dec 27, 2022.

  1. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    28,514
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    Charles Samuel OLIVER was born in 1875 in Speldhurst, Kent to parents William Edgar OLIVER and Charlotte Jane née CATT.

    He married Emily MECHEN on 2nd June 1900 in Brighton, Sussex and the following year, the 1901 census shows them living at 14 Grove Street, Brighton, where Charles is aged 25 and working as a Railway Labourer. (Piece 923, folio 108, page 13). They have one child, Edith, who was born in 1900.

    The 1911 census has Emily, now a widow, living at 58 Hanover Terrace, Brighton, aged 30 and working as a Laundress. By this time, 2 other children have arrived: Louisa Rose in 1902 and Charles Samuel in 1910.

    Emily and the children emigrated to Canada in 1912 and can be found living in Ontario in the 1921 census. Emily died there in Milton, Ontario on 11th July 1967.

    However….

    What happened to Charles?

    I have searched high and low but am blowed if I can find his death. :headbang:

    So… over to you, super sleuths! :reading:
     
  2. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,034
    Likes Received:
    20,497
    Location:
    Knighton, Powys, Wales
    Not going to help much. On FS, someone had added him to their tree back on 5th June 2012. The entry was updated on 10th June 2021 to give date and place of birth.

    16 August 1875, Rusthall, Kent, England

    They don't know any other information about him either.

    Rusthall is just under 2 miles from Speldhurst.
     
    Daft Bat likes this.
  3. Half Hour

    Half Hour Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    9,512
    Location:
    Owen Sound, Ontario
    Interestingly if you look again at the 1921 Canadian census there is another son Leslie, aged 7 born in Ontario. Father James Oliver when you look at his birth registration. Same mother... so, did she marry her brother-in-law or did Charles change his name? When Leslie married his father is Charles Samuel. When the other children married their father is listed as Charles Samuel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2022
    Daft Bat and Chimp like this.
  4. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    28,514
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    Thanks @Half Hour :)

    Charles is not on the ship manifest with the others in 1912 and Emily is recorded as a widow in both 1911 in UK and 1921 in Canada.

    It would not surprise me if Leslie just named his father as Charles Samuel as that was what he was told - to fit in with the others.

    No idea where the James came from but maybe that was his father's first name - if he was born illegitimate...
     
  5. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,540
    Likes Received:
    5,020
    Location:
    Bloxham Oxfordshire
    there is a birth cert for the son Charles Samuel which says father id Deceased
     
    Half Hour, Daft Bat and Chimp like this.
  6. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Have you checked the original of the death registration of Charles Oliver Jun 1909 East Grinstead age 44. Could be an error in age. Just a thought.
     
    Chimp and Half Hour like this.
  7. Half Hour

    Half Hour Well-Known Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    9,512
    Location:
    Owen Sound, Ontario
    @Daft Bat
    I wondered the same! I thought it was still interesting. I had looked at all the marriages of the children to see if any had deceased by their father's name, but none did. I don't think that was indicated very often on Ontario marriages. Started this post and then my internet went off... here it is now.
     
    Chimp and Daft Bat like this.
  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

    Offline
    Messages:
    5,966
    Likes Received:
    16,165
    Location:
    Middlesex
    I looked at that one, and there is a Charles Oliver in East Grinstead on the 1901 census, who was age 36 then, so a likely candidate for the 1909 death.
    RG13/906/116/15
     
    Chimp and Archie's Mum like this.
  9. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

    Offline
    Messages:
    1,540
    Likes Received:
    5,020
    Location:
    Bloxham Oxfordshire
    why on the passenger list for 1912 does it say Emily is a retn Canadian and that she was there in 1907 just curious
     
    Chimp and Archie's Mum like this.
  10. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    It also says she was there between 1907 and 1911 in various places totaling 2 years. So I read that as she was going back and forth between those years.
    Also found on FS that Charles Samuel Oliver born 7/3/1910 and died 1/3/1984 at Gwillimbury Simcoe Ontario.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2022
    Sandiep and Chimp like this.
  11. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Tree on FS has Leslie George COSBY with Oliver in brackets.
    James COSBY #3 ??? his father.
    I'm a bit curious as to the 8 year age gap between Louisa and Charles....
     
    Sandiep and Chimp like this.
  12. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Find a grave has the memorial for Charles S Oliver, burial at Mount Pleasant Bradford, Simcoe Ontario. Mentioned parents Charles Samuel Oliver 1875-1911 and Emily Mechen 1879 -1967. Whether that means that he actually died in 1911 or was it the last sighting of him, I have no idea.
    Emily MECHEN Oliver is buried at Evergreen Cemetery Milton Ontario. Memorial has her husband as SAMUEL Oliver, mother of Edith. Death 11/7/1967
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2022
    Sandiep, Chimp and Daft Bat like this.
  13. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    I give up. I think he must have gone over to Canada earlier to set up for his family and gone missing over there. Louisa married Frederick John Jones, 26 when she was 16. Emily and Edith were witnesses. Charles S Oliver is named as father on the marriage certificate, viewable on FS.
    This could explain the reason for Emily to state that they had gone to Canada on other occasions between 1907 and 1911. It also explains the 8 years between children if he was over in Canada.
     
    Sandiep, Chimp and Daft Bat like this.
  14. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    Have a look at the manifest of the 'Lake Erie" May 1906 Quebec from England. There is a 30 year old, (1876) Charles Oliver, born Kent, MARRIED, farm labourer? going to Winnipeg. No family with him.
    If Winnipeg was after farm labourers then that is what he would have stated that he was, just to get there...They did that here to get immigration approval.
     
    Sandiep, Chimp and Daft Bat like this.
  15. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    28,514
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    This chap hanged himself - there is quite a write-up in the local newspaper - and can be found in East Grinstead in other censuses etc. So sadly not the right chap. :( But thanks for looking. :)

    Side note: apparently, this chap's wife left him at one point because of domestic abuse, came back to him but all the locals banged pots and pans along his funeral procession. :eek:
     
    Sandiep, Half Hour and Chimp like this.
  16. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    28,514
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    Interesting... thank you.
    Thank you. Will do. :)
     
    Sandiep and Chimp like this.
  17. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    28,514
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    Well! That's interesting!

    On the outgoing passenger list he is aged 40 and single:
    upload_2022-12-28_9-22-28.png

    He is also recorded as CS Oliver, a labourer

    On the incoming passenger list, he is aged 30 and married:
    upload_2022-12-28_9-25-23.png

    Note: the ticket numbers match: 80559

    So....

    If Emily is recorded as a widow, did he die in Canada between 1906 and 1911 or did he just "disappear"? But then, why did Emily go there?

    Charles' intended destination was Winnipeg, Manitoba, whereas Emily ended up in Ontario.

    More questions than answers again... :headbang:
     

    Attached Files:

    Sandiep, AnnB and Chimp like this.
  18. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    28,514
    Location:
    Northamptonshire, England.
    There is a death registered in Dauphin, Manitoba on 22nd December 1909 for a Charles OLIVER aged 35.....
     
    Sandiep likes this.
  19. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    I was thinking that as Emily was in Canada between 1907 and 1911, at various places, maybe she was looking for him. Heaven knows what she could have been doing for a living. Her previous arrivals in Canada haven't shown up as far as I know so maybe she did go to Manitoba initially and then decided she would emigrate in 1912 to Ontario.
     
    Sandiep and Daft Bat like this.
  20. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    9,934
    Likes Received:
    34,880
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    There are four Olivers buried at Riverside Cemetery Dauphin, Charles being one but no other info on the memorial.
     
    Sandiep and Daft Bat like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice