What's the bride's surname?

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by Findem, May 13, 2020.

  1. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Hi all,

    Andreas Baker married Maria ? 26 May 1611 at Great Dunmow Essex.

    I would appreciate what you think the bride's maiden surname is please, the first PR image pages are for comparing with the writing of the person who recorded the marriage.

    I searched on what I thought was the bride's surname from 1570 to 1597 Essex wide but nothing came up so I'm wondering what others might consider the surname could be.

    On Ancestry's Essex Parish Register Index the the name was spelled Glenalg, also Free Reg have the surname as Glenalg.

    Regards

    Great Dunmow PR page.jpg

    Marriage 1611 Great Dunmow Andrew Baker to Maria.jpg
     
  2. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    PS if anyone can translate the Latin that follows the Latin for Marriage I would be grateful.
     
  3. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    A derivative of Greenhalge, maybe. Grenalge. I think that’s how is spelt. I’m in the car so I’m just having a stab.
     
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  4. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    I think that the surname ends with '..onaly' - the 'e' at the end being a flourish. :)
     
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  5. Murfomurf

    Murfomurf Well-Known Member

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    I have tried Gronaly and variations but they did not seem to exist in any language. I would go for GREENHALGH as the modernised version. I have a line of Greenhalghs, the majority from Lancashire, very few down south. GLENELG has also been used as a surname.
     
  6. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    I see CARONALY(E) or CRONALY(E).

    The first letter is the same as the place in April's entry - CARARIA?
    Don't think it's a G - is that a G in the July entry?

    Jane
     
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  7. Genie1

    Genie1 Well-Known Member

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    Cvonalye?
     
  8. MollyMay

    MollyMay Knows where to find the answers!

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    Cronaly here too - I looked on GenUKI for the latin transcription, but this entry does not follow the examples on there, so other than the word 'matrimonis' I am stumped.
     
  9. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Bottom of the page in October is ‘Constantinis’ A definate capital ‘C’.
     
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  10. Steve Bumstead

    Steve Bumstead Well-Known Member

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    The writer uses two different capital C's, and this isn't one of them. I would go with Grenalge (Greenhalgh?) but I'm not sure of the long descender after the final letter.
     
  11. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Previous page, July. Gulielmus Stone and Grisilla?
     
  12. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    I checked the first letter of that surname against examples of 17th & 18th century Alphabets and I'm pretty sure its a G, the second letter look like an r the third letter could be taken for an e or o. I agonized over the last letter and in the end settled for y, although I wont count it out as being g.

    In the end I thought Gronaly or Grenaly, possibly the y being g and possibly with an e on the end.

    The following are the nearest I could find in an appropriate time frame on Ancestry's Essex Parish Register Index.

    Elizabeth Gromoley baptised 21 Jul 1588 Great Dunmow Essex, don't fancy that spelling although the PR image might tell a different tale, it is the EPRI after all.

    Thomas Graneley bap 11 Oct 1584 Great Leighs.
    John Graneley bap 16 Sep 1593 Great Leighs.
    Katherine Graneley bap 16 May 1591 Fairstead.
    Agnes Graneley bap 19 Nov 1592 Fairstead.

    Maria conspicuous by her absence unfortunately.

    I will try Greenhalg just in case, that surname on the EPRI came in Heinz varieties.

    Thanks all for your thoughts
     
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  13. Steve Bumstead

    Steve Bumstead Well-Known Member

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    The letter after the 'l' is definitely a 'g' - it has a loop to the left. A 'y' has a loop to the right - you can see several on the page. What bothers me is the final flourish on the last letter. It could be an modification mark to an 'e' or possibly an abbreviated 'h'.
     
  14. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Grenalge or Grenalgh - probably at that date the two would be more or less interchangeable anyway.

    The Latin that follows:

    matrimonio coniuncti sunt - were joined in marriage

    then probably:

    in facie ecclesiae

    in the form of the church (ie according to the church's practice)
     
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  15. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    I will keep those names in mind, tried them yesterday but still no Maria, she's probably an alien beamed down.
     
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  16. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    This morning I tried again for Maria, bringing the search period forward to see what's around, I did find a Maria.

    Maria Graneley baptised 12 mar 1600 at Great Waltham, Essex the daughter of Thome aka Thomas, my heart raced a bit on seeing the name until I saw the year 1600, that would see her aged 11 years for a marriage in 1611. So near but no. :headbang: :mad: :D

    I would try searching on just Maria but in the possible time frame there would be so many Marias/Marys in Essex, I tried that route once before with a Mary and in all the results not one Mary that looked even remotely like the surname I was looking for.

    I need a crying icon! :D

    Great Waltham is quite near to Fairstead and Gt Leighs, Fairstead and Gt Leighs parishes are neighbours.
     
  17. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    :eek::eek: Oh no!

    Just been in to RootsChat and their Surname Interest, someone is researching Granelli in Scotland and Cheshire and as you have probably guessed Italy, last thing I need is that sort of complication.

    Still, bearing in mind the 1784 baptism in Gt Leighs, I might still be in with a chance (do miracles happen) and find Maria baptised in Essex, just have to hope Graneley etc are not Essex phonetic versions of Granelli that would be cruel. :D
     
  18. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Thanks for that translation Arthur, I couldn't even decipher the words after matrimonio.

    I have a Simple Latin booklet but that wording/phrasing isn't given so I'll write it in.
     
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  19. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I believe Greenhalgh is most commonly found in Lancashire and adjacent counties. That would include variants - one of these, I once read, is Greenhoff, which football fans might recognise. Greenhalgh itself, on the odd occasions I've come across it, is pronounced with a '-j' sound at the end.

    So not quite as exotic as Italy, or even Scotland - but maybe still "foreign" to an Essex lad...;)
     
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  20. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    There's a plague of Greens in Essex in the 1700s and I guess other counties too, my fault for using Gre* and Gr* as searches. :D

    Another interesting name came up Greenliefe, if it exists today I expect it would be spelled Greenleaf, I can't see that name being of use even allowing for the spoken Essexification of the name, funny that, the spelling checker doesn't like Essexification, now it will accept it. :cool: :D
     
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