Where exactly is Sunderland?

Discussion in 'Durham' started by Old Stoneface, Apr 23, 2016.

  1. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    I don't "do" new-fangled counties (?) like Tyne and Wear and Merseyside, not when it comes to ancestors who were born in proper counties before the politicos started messing things around.

    One such is Mary Isabella Bowmaker who died in Sunderland in 1939.

    A. tells me that she died in Sunderland, Cumberland, but, unless there's a wee hamlet in Cumberland with that name, I know they've got it wrong. That's for probate. Her death record says inferred county Northumberland.

    I've always believed Sunderland to be in County Durham, and Genuki Durham says it is. So is it, or has it been moved without anyone noticing - except A. who are now totally muddled and might put it in Cornwall next. :eek:
     
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  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Me too!
     
  3. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    One vote! Thanks, Jan. :)

    Anyone from Durham/Northumberland or even - shudder - Tyne and Wear willing to give their opinion?
     
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  4. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    You're not wrong - there's a Sunderland about 6 miles NE of Cockermouth.There's also Sunderland (or Sunderland Point) in Lancashire, at the mouth of the River Lune.

    The city in the north-east is in the post-1974 county of Tyne and Wear, but for FH purposes I'd always call it Co. Durham.
     
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  5. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    According to Wiki Sunderland was Historically in County Durham

    FreeBMD has Mary's death registered in Sunderland, Co. Durham, as does FMP & familycearch

    Code:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland,_Tyne_and_Wear
     
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  6. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad to know that at least some genealogical organisations know where it is :D It's surely big enough, isn't it?

    On the note of "new counties", I shall forever kick myself for being helpful at the R.O. and informing the registrar that the county of Lancaster was, in fact Lancashire. As we were in Sheffield, it might have been a mini-war of the roses, but she honestly didn't seem to know. She fished out a book of updated counties, I suppose, to check, with the end result that my mother was consigned to a birth in miserable Merseyside instead of the Royal Duchy of Lancaster :( :(
     
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  7. Bonzo Dog

    Bonzo Dog Still the Mad Scientist?

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    Time was when Tamworth was in both Staffordshire and Warwickshire and had 2 MP's. The county boundary was the River Anker, but for some odd reason the castle, which is on the north bank of the river, was in Warwickshire while everything else north of the river was in Staffordshire. o_O
     
  8. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    For the record (and I've mentioned this here before), there IS a Sunderland in Cumberland.

    I have ancestors there - and have spent many a happy hour walking the lanes. ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    As my hubby and many of his ancestors were born in Sunderland when it was in County Durham this is a problem I am familiar with! It became part of Tyne and Wear in 1974 and is also part of the City of Sunderland (previously the Borough of Sunderland from 1974 until city status was granted in 1992). The City of Sunderland is a metropolitan borough which also includes several other adjacent places such as Washington and Houghton-le-Spring.

    There are, indeed, several other places in England called Sunderland - in addition to those mentioned above I can think of Sunderland Bridge in County Durham and North Sunderland in Northumberland.

    Ancestry has some records that actually belong to Sunderland in County Durham tagged as relating to Sunderland, Cumberland, including the entry you have found in the National Probate Index!

    Sue
     
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  10. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    I seem to have an inordinate number of ancestors who lived in villages on the county boundary and which were in the other county when I turn up at the Archives of the one on the Censuses :( Well, I exaggerate somewhat, but there are several who have played that trick on me; I'll never learn.

    And it's not just counties and villages which are in the wrong places. There's a French enclave in Spain at the other end of the Pyrenees from us and, closer to home, there's a Spanish village which pays its taxes to France or something; it's more agricultural than that and dates back centuries.

    There are probably lots that we don't know of, too, and I won't mention Gibraltar or the Falklands ... :oops: whoops, I just did.
     
  11. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Yes the only Sunderland I know of is in Tyne & wear. Boundaries seem to have changed so many times over the years - and new ones created too.
     
  12. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Been meaning to ask this for sometime now, my grandfather was born in Houghton-le-Spring, how is it pronounced? Haw- or Hoe- or How-? Or something else I haven't even considered?
     
  13. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    Hoe tun lee spring ... with the stress on the first syllable :)

    I live in Chester-le-Street, which often has to be spelled out, but the thing I find a little bit annoying is being told that County Durham must be in Northern Ireland because it starts with the word 'County'!
     
  14. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks Sue :)
     
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  15. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    That's good to know.

    I would have pronounced it Huffton-le Spring :(

    Isn't the English language wonderful? :D
     
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  16. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    It is indeed. When I was new to the area, many years ago now, I pronounced it as Howton-le-Spring and that was met with much laughter from my newly acquired in-laws! I also failed to make myself understood when seeking a taxi to Jarrow because I said Jarro and not Jarrah. Other local traps for the unwary are Ponteland (Ponteeeland, not Pontyland) and Wideopen (Wide open, not widdyoppen). :D
     
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  17. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    This is why Welsh pronunciation is so much easier, to my mind. You have a clear set of rules.

    I'm always slipping up on Cumbrian place names - and Yorkshire. :confused:
     
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  18. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    I'm not as sure as you about that, Bay Horse. My mother was brought up in Wales and did all her schooling in Welsh, but left at about age 16 and, being from an English family, had no reason to maintain her fluency.

    I would have loved to have been able to speak Welsh, but some 15 years later, when she had me, she saw no point in speaking - even if she had been able to - it to us. The net result is that I can't roll my r's, which I needed for Spanish, and have lost a couple of other sounds from my "vocabulary" as well which would have helped me as a linguist.

    We used to go on holiday to near where she was brought up on the Llyn Peninsula which always meant driving through Pwllheli. I can say Llanfairpwllgwngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, but I can't pronounce Pwllheli for the life of me!
     
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  19. Old Stoneface

    Old Stoneface Well-Known Member

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    I only recently learned that Keighley is Keithly :D

    Spanish is a good language, and easy to learn to begin with - and my hobby horse partly because my kids didn't have to learn English at school. They were lucky as there was Spanish & German as well, but people presumed they'd do English to be top of the class. Bottom, more like, sez I, they'll be bored out of their tiny minds. Oh, well, they'll be doing German, then? It's considered the language which intelligent children learn, while no-hopers do Spanish as they won't be leaving the region. That attitude towards Spanish is partly an inheritance from the Spanish Civil War when refugees tumbled over the border, and many women took cleaning jobs

    Flippin' heck, learn German when we live close enough to Spain to go there for the day? or for petrol, when it was cheaper, and alcohol, which still is, and fags because unfortunately two brats out of three smoke, but they reckon Spanish cigarettes are less dangerous than French ones.

    On French packets, it says "Smoking kills!" On Spanish packets, it says "Smoking can kill". So they reckon their odds are better with Spanish ones :eek:

    All that was to say that you pronounce every letter in Spanish which makes things easier. :cool:

    As for French, I wrote to the BBC not long ago to complain about the presenter of a cookery programme who mis-pronounces the names of the French cakes being presented. Can't he be taught just those words?! :( It's the same with the Great British Bake Off, I'm afraid, but if they have to bake something Ethiopian or Ukrainian, they can mis-pronounce the names as much as they like, and it doesn't bother me one jot.

    Oh, and to finish, some of the antique experts are culpable, too. They say things like "jardinere" when anyone can see that there's an I in the middle of it, so it should be pronounced "jardin-eee-ère". Like "crème pâtissIère"

    Subsides into a grumbling but non-erupting volcano.:mad: :mad:
     
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  20. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Keith-leh, if you live there.

    :D:D
     
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